Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
D-Day, minus Soviets
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by ballerShane (U8038744) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
How different would D-Day have been if the Germans had not been simultaneously fighting in the East?
If they had been able to concentrate most of their resources on defending France.
Was an allied victory still inevitable? Or was a German victory feasible?
It's not a topic I am too familiar with, so I thought it would be worth floating the idea here. Hopefully some of the WW2 enthusiasts can enlighten me!! -
Message 2
Posted by LairigGhru (U14051689) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
D-Day was a close-run affair as it was, so I am tempted to assume that had all of Hitler's forces been available to repel it then it was highly likely to have failed. Think of all the extra troops and formidable tank divisions that would have faced the Allies.
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Message 3
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
It would depend on the exact alternative scenario.
If ALL of Germany's forces could be ranged against an allied invasion, a cross channel invasion would become very tricky indeed. Perhaps impossible. The war might have lasted much longer, with the allies looking to come across via southern Europe, which would have been a much longer campaign than it was.
Perhaps the war would have been ended by the US dropping a nuclear bomb on Berlin.
However, if the Germans still need to deploy a significant force to defend against a possible Soviet attack, then I suspect an invasion would be feasible, but still much, much more difficult than it was.
In the actual event, the Germans were 'dead men walking' as it were, by 1944, precisely because the Soviets had them on the run already. -
Message 4
Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Almost undoubtedly, if only half, or even a quarter, of the vast forces that Germany deployed on the Eastern front, were available to defend the West, the allies would have been thrown back.
On the other hand, Nazi policy was to invade nation after nation, over-stretching its forces in a war of attrition, so it could be seen as an inevitable result of the nature of Nazi-ism, to be eventually overwhelmed. -
Message 5
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Would the Allies have bothered with D-Day if it weren't for pressure from Stalin? One option would have been to attack Germany from the south, more gradually, via the foothold already established in Italy.
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Message 6
Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
Could the Allies afford to be so gradual? Is it not the case that the Germans were developing more powerful weapons, including nuclear weapons? Given time, they might have been able to deploy more devastating force.
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Message 7
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 17th June 2010
I think time was on the Allies' side, given how massively superior their industrial base and access to raw materials were.
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Message 8
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Friday, 18th June 2010
Fascinating "...Given time, they might have been able to deploy more devastating force..."
Well, probably not.
The only weapon that could have won them the war in the end was the A-bomb, as you mention. And, so far as I can tell, they were way behind the US. They were nowhere near producing one. All the other 'wonder weapons' of the Germans were, in actual reality liabilities, with the possible exception of jet fighters, which could never be produced in sufficient numbers.
To give the Germans 'sufficient time' would be to ask all their enemies to stand off for, oh, about a decade or two. Alternative histories have to be a bit more realistic than that to be worth considering.
In any case, occupying any substantial land mass once your own foot soldiers have been wiped out is nigh on impossible, whatever the wonder of your weaponry. -
Message 9
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 18th June 2010
Catigern,
Would the Allies have bothered with D-Day if it weren't for pressure from Stalin? One option would have been to attack Germany from the south, more gradually, via the foothold already established in Italy.Μύ
From 1942 the Americans pushed for an attack from the west as soon as possible. The British said the Americans would never be ready for that before 1943 and most probably before 1944. FDR concurred and agreed to send US troops into the Mediterranean while the build-up in the UK continued.
Churchill briefly tried to push for a strictly Mediterranean strategy but the Americans drew the line at Italy.
One may say that without the Soviets the war in Europe would have been entirely different from what went into the history books. But then, gambler that he was, Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler if he hadn't attacked the USSR. -
Message 10
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 19th June 2010
hi ballershane
i think the answer is there is NO chance that d-day would have been successful
the other resources you mention are about 150 crack german divisions that hadnt sufferred 3 million casualties plus thousands of planes
we succeeded because 6 first class divisions were held in the pas de calais due to the allies deception plan - even these would have turned the tide
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Message 11
Posted by RedGuzzi750 (U7604797) on Sunday, 20th June 2010
Stalti is probably right - it would not have worked. So it would have been back to the A-Bomb or even The Super dropped by a B36 on Berlin....nightmare scenarios, but thats all I can see. In the end the Allies (US mainly with a big injection of Commonwealth and Free Peoples) scientific power, and brute industrial power would have won the war. But it would not have been pretty - probably an A-bomb per large German city until somebody left in charge calls a halt...
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Message 12
Posted by englishvote (U5473482) on Monday, 21st June 2010
Stalti
the other resources you mention are about 150 crack german divisions that hadnt sufferred 3 million casualties plus thousands of planes
Μύ
Of course without the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 the 3 million casualties would not have died but then again they would not even have been called up to serve.
There would not have been β150 crack German divisionsβ without Barbarossa, in fact the German army would probably have decreased in size after the fall of France and the conquest of the Balkans.
Also the notion that there were β150 crack German divisionsβ anywhere by the summer of 1944 is very questionable. The German army in Russia was exhausted and mostly every unit had been reduced to a fraction of its paper strength.
A lot of German equipment was developed to counter the Soviets, without the war in the east the Germans would not have been forced to design many of their best weapons. Certainly no Panther tanks or many of the heavy assault guns, anti tank guns and panzerfausts that proved so effective in Normandy.
The entire βwhat ifβ of Germany not invading the Soviet Union is just too vast to come up with any reasonable conclusions, an easier question would be βwhat if D-Day had failed catastrophically and thus released the German forces in the west for use on the Eastern front? β -
Message 13
Posted by RedGuzzi750 (U7604797) on Monday, 21st June 2010
I don't think a lack of Panthers would have been a problem; MkIV Specials could have easily dealt with our tanks or at least fought them on equal terms.
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Message 14
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Monday, 21st June 2010
hi englishvote
superb point and one i didnt think about - ie the veteran divisions wouldnt have existed -
but the army that destroyed the french polish dutch belgian and british armies did !!
bit scary though - d day would have been against 150 fresh divisions - based on the 60 divisions that had battered france etc !!
it couldnt have happened - d day - we fought 13 divisions - several hiwi divisions - they wouldnt have existed - it would have been the "flower of a generation" that filled the german army - even though they werent veterans they would have been quite good
st
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Message 15
Posted by englishvote (U5473482) on Wednesday, 23rd June 2010
Hi Stalti
Without the German invasion of the Soviet Union then it is very doubtful that the Allies could have launched a cross channel invasion
Certainly there would not have been the pressure from Stalin to open a second front and relieve some of the pressure on the Red Army.
But with out the war on the eastern front could the Allies have won in North Africa or contemplated an invasion of Sicily and Italy
But lets not forget that Germany would still have needed to keep considerable forces in the east to guard against a Soviet invasion. If some Russian historians are to be believed then the Soviets would have attacked Germany in 1941, but were beaten to it by the Germans.
But just what would the German army have been like without Barbarossa?
More importantly just how would the Germany economy and German industry have been set up for war ?
After the fall of France there was a decline in war production in Germany.
We have not even considered the allies strategic bombing campaign on Germany, what chance would the bombers have had with the entire Luftwaffe still based in the west?
On more fundamental level would Hitler have declared war on the USA if Germany was not already fighting in the Soviet Union? -
Message 16
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Wednesday, 23rd June 2010
Yes - all the REALLY big questions about the war hang on that one decision. WW2 without Russia would have been so different that most other questions are really unanswerable.
Mind you, I can't see how Hitler could have gone on for too long without attacking Russia, or being attacked by them, as having him and Stalin on the same continent was like putting 2 paranoid pitbulls into a cage, and telling both of them that the other was out to get him. -
Message 17
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Wednesday, 23rd June 2010
englishvote,
On more fundamental level would Hitler have declared war on the USA if Germany was not already fighting in the Soviet Union?Μύ
Hitler declaring war on the US is more a topic for another thread. Before June 22, 1941, FDR's original interest in the war was based upon the UK's ability to stay in the fight, and had pushed the limits of neutrality with this in mind. -
Message 18
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 23rd June 2010
Didn't Churchill want to invade via the Balkens, and then join up with the Russians pushing west. It was the US that wanted to invade via France.
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Message 19
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Wednesday, 23rd June 2010
it would have been difficult for barbarossa not to happen as mein kampf was all about
lebensroum (space) which meant russia
alemain would have been a bit difficult though when the afrika korps had a potential size of 100 + divisions instead of 8
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Message 20
Posted by caveman1944 (U11305692) on Wednesday, 23rd June 2010
once Hitler invaded Russia the Yanks knew that was their chance and were over here like a shot in spite of Japan, who could wait.
If he conquered Europe he would have the overseas possesions which the Dutch and French had. The idea of a powerful German fleet at sea and a dictator was too much for either us or the Yanks.
No chance of invasion otherwise. -
Message 21
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 24th June 2010
Didn't Japan simply take over the French lands after France surrendered to Germany. I wonder if they did it with permission from Germany?
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Message 22
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Thursday, 24th June 2010
Researcher,
once Hitler invaded Russia the Yanks knew that was their chance and were over here like a shot in spite of Japan, who could wait.Μύ
"Like a shot" plus five and a half months waiting for the Japanese to do their bit at PH, another three days for Hitler to declare war for no sensible benefit, plus another eleven months just to land a semi-trained army in Morocco one thousand miles from the nearest Axis combat unit.
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