Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
Football (or soccer for US) and War
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 12th June 2010
It's World cup time and I would improve my knoweldege about famous or less football match during war time.
I give you some examples:
The Death Match: The Death Match was a non-official association football match in 1942 between Soviet POWs — former professional footballers (mostly from Dynamo Kyiv) — and soldiers of the Nazi Germany Wehrmacht.[1] The Soviet players defeated the Germans, despite knowing what the consequences of defying them would have been. Many of the Soviet players were later arrested and sent to a labour camp where some of them died.
During 1942, FC Start played several matches with teams of soldiers of occupying garrisons, and won them all:
Date Opponent Score (FC Start bolded)
June 21 Hungarian garrison 6-2
July 5 Romanian garrison 11-0
July 12 Military railroad workers team 9-1
July 17 PGS (Germany) 6-0
July 19 MSG.Wal (Hungary) 5-1
July 21 MSG.Wal (Hungary) 3-2
August 6 Flakelf (Germany) 5-1
Soccer Soldiers:
bye -
Message 2
Posted by baz (U14258304) on Saturday, 12th June 2010
Beria, one of Stalin's hangmen, used to give his side hell if they lost. I can't recall which side it was, but they were known as the NKVD's team.
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Message 3
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 12th June 2010
The story of FC Start is a little known but fascinating one Alexander. It was also the (loose) inspiration for the 1981 feature film 'Escape To Victory'. Although that film featured Western European and American POWs while the Eastern European POWs played only a secondary role.
Regarding FC Start then you might like to read 'The World Cup - An alternative history' by the Ukrainean writer Andre Russo. It can be read online here:
Among other things it features a fictious 'Nazi World Cup' played in 1942. This is also heavily influenced by the FC Start story. As the title suggests, Russo's 'alternative world cup history' is all fantasy and is just an exercise in intellectual dilletanism but it crucially draws on the writer's wide depth of knowledge regarding international soccer dating back to the 1860s. -
Message 4
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Monday, 14th June 2010
Didn't El Salvador and Honduras go to war after a football match, which was appropriately named El Futbol War?
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Message 5
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Tuesday, 15th June 2010
Hi shivfan,
yes, it's true:
and after a war a football match became a war: England vs Argentina.
PS
It's better without Green like GK
It's so difficult to find another David Seamen -
Message 6
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
Yeah, David James has been much better in goal for Portsmouth, than Green was for West Ham this season....
It is interesting how the passions can boil over in football, to the point of almost becoming an international incident, or occasionally leading to a war. -
Message 7
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
and after a war a football match became a war: England vs Argentina.Ìý
If this is a reference to the Falklands War then it must be appreciated that the Argentina v England soccer rivalry well predates 1982.
England and Argentina met in (infamously) in the Quarter-Finals of the 1966 World Cup and also in the First Round of the 1962 World Cup in Chile. In between those 2 matches there was also a match played during the Taça das Nações in Brazil in 1964. All 3 encounters were keenly contested.
The rivalry, however, began even before then. The first fixure between the 2 sides took place in 1951 when Argentina was hosted at Wembley. They returned the honour 2 years later in 1953 when England toured Argentina. And it's in that 1953 tour that the seeds of the rivalry can be seen to have been sewn.
During the tour the 2 teams played each other twice. In one match the game was abandoned due to torrential rain and was marked down as a 0-0 draw. So far so good. In the other match, however, Argentina won 3-1. This match is recognised as a full international by both the Argentinean FA and by FIFA. The (English) FA, however, refused to recognise the match as an official England fixture but instead put the England team in that match down as the 'FA XI'. Somewhat understandably this act of denial by the FA struck the Argentineans as somewhat unsportsmanlike and has wrankled with them ever since.
P.S. It must also be appreciated that the 1982 Falklands War was between Argentina and the UK (rather than England as such) and so football analogies with regard to that war can be problematic. -
Message 8
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Friday, 18th June 2010
Thanks Vizzer aka U_numbers,
I've put your post in my England FA History File.
P.S. It must also be appreciated that the 1982 Falklands War was between Argentina and the UK (rather than England as such) and so football analogies with regard to that war can be problematic.
I know that British doesn't mean English, but people and local newspapers abroad (eg in Italy)are used to confused the two nouns and concepts.
An Example
An Italian aren’t used to say: The British Prime Minister, but He’ll say the English Prime Minister.
A tourist that speaks English is an English or at the most an American.
So everything is British is considered English; probably the study of English language and the Rugby culture will change this.
Bye -
Message 9
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 19th June 2010
pedantic - but so what
it annoys me that people keep saying soccer is a yank term - its an english term !!
it comes from the abbreviation of Association Football - the original english organisation of football - Assoc Football = soccer
st -
Message 10
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Sunday, 20th June 2010
England FA History FileÌý
Hello Alexander
meant to add re Argentina v England rivalry:
although from an England point of view Argentina has been the archrival at the World Cup Finals (England has played against Argentina more than against any other team - 5 times), from an Argentinean point of view, however, England is only one of 3 main rivals. While Argentina has played against England at 5 World Cups (1962, 1966, 1986, 1998 & 2002), Argentina has also played Germany 5 times (1958, 1966, 1986, 1990 & 2006) and also against Italy 5 times (1974, 1978, 1982, 1986 & 1990).
P.S. The most common fixture at World Cup Finals, however, has been Brazil v Sweden. These 2 teams have played each other on no fewer than 7 occasions (1938, 1950, 1958, 1978, 1990 and twice! in 1994). -
Message 11
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Sunday, 20th June 2010
Note that on Sunday (June 20th) Italy were tied by New Zealand... a 5th ranked team stopped in their tracks by one ranked 78th.
A tremendous upset, I'm told. -
Message 12
Posted by Charles Babbage (U2239092) on Sunday, 20th June 2010
Actually on the basis of games played Germany and Australia have something of a rivalry. Australia have played German teams 3 times (East, West and Germany) - quite a lot given that we have only ever played 9 games at the WC. Has been a Roadrunner v Coyote type rivalry though.
And back on the football war theme I think Australia was close to declaring war on the Netherlands over the performance of a certain dutch manager after our opening game... -
Message 13
Posted by Stoggler (U14387762) on Monday, 21st June 2010
I know that British doesn't mean English, but people and local newspapers abroad (eg in Italy)are used to confused the two nouns and concepts.
Ìý
A case in point:
1967 Intercontinental Cup/World Club Championship, between Celtic and Racing Club. It did not matter that Celtic are a Scottish club, the Argentinians took the opportunity to get stuck into their British opposition as "revenge" for the previous year's world cup tie. It was a dirty match which the Argentinians won.
A similar thing happened the following year when Man Utd played another Argentinian team, with another dirty tie played out.
Stalti
You're right, soccer is a British term and it was in very common usage in my dad's childhood and younger days for example, and many footballers in the post-war decades used the word everyday; World Cup winner Ray Wilson's autobiography is called "My Life in Soccer"! -
Message 14
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Monday, 21st June 2010
stalti and Stoggler,
I said that soccer is an American word because when I attend the high school I was rebuked for say soccer than football. (I was grown up with Sensibile soccer b-)).
Erik Lindsay,
Italy's used to play bad the first part of international competion. In 2006 Italy won because have the best defense and the Totti and Del Piero fantasy, the present team it isn't the same.
What it's very upset it's the declaration of the New Zeland team : "the referee was on the Italian payroll!". Think about the Montolivo's goal post, please.
A tremendous upset, I'm told.
Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington:
The history of a battle, is not unlike the history of a ball. Some individuals may recollect all the little events of which the great result is the battle won or lost, but no individual can recollect the order in which, or the exact moment at which, they occurred, which makes all the difference as to their value or importance. .. -
Message 15
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 21st June 2010
During the 1962 World Cup there was what became known as the Battle of Santiago between Chile and Italy
..........................
"The Â鶹ԼÅÄ HD channel are showing the highlights of the Portugal-North Korea match.So if you want to see it,press the red button now......Not you Mr Kim!!!" -
Message 16
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 22nd June 2010
Austria qualified for the 1938 World Cup by beating Latvia in October 1937. Five months later, however, Austria was annexed by Germany and its team merged with Germany's.
At the finals (in France) this new united German team made a First Round exit, losing 4-2 to Switzerland. One of the goalscorers in that Swiss team was Alfred Bickel who would also go on to play in the 1950 World Cup in Brazil. In doing so Bickel would be 1 of only 2 players who would play in World Cups both before and after the Second World War. The other was Erik Nilsson of Sweden.
Was that fact that Bickel and Nilsson were citizens of neutral countries significant in this? Who knows. -
Message 17
Posted by hoddles off into the sunset (U14129169) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
it comes from the abbreviation of Association Football - the original english organisation of football - Assoc Football = soccerÌý
Indeed. Some public schools played to rugger rules and others played to soccer rules. -
Message 18
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
Here's a list of some war and other news events which took place while World Cup matches were taking place:
Brasil’50 – June 25 – First Round Matches
Italy v Sweden (Sao Paulo - Pacaembu)
Yugoslavia v Switzerland (Belo Horizonte – Sete de Setembro)
Chile v England (Rio de Janeiro – Maracana)
America v Spain (Curitiba – Brito)
meanwhile … North Korea invades South Korea as Korean War breaks out.
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Mexico’70 – May 31 – Opening Match
Mexico v Soviet Union (Mexico – Azteca)
meanwhile … a landslide following an earthquake buries the town of Yungay in Peru killing 47,000 people.
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Espana’82 – June 14 – First Round Matches
Italy v Poland (Vigo – Balaidos)
Soviet Union v Brazil (Seville – Sanchez Pizjuan)
meanwhile … Argentine forces in Port Stanley surrender to the British ending Falklands War.
Espana’82 – June 19 – First Round Matches
Poland v Cameroon (La Coruna –Riazor)
Belgium v El Salvador (Elche – Nuevo)
Soviet Union v New Zealand (Malaga – La Rosaleda)
meanwhile … the body of Roberto Calvi, chairman of the Banco Ambrosiano (the Vatican’s bank), is found hanging under Blackfriars Bridge in London.
Espana’82 – June 22 – First Round Matches
Poland v Peru (La Coruna – Riazor)
Belgium v Hungary (Elche – Nuevo)
Scotland v Soviet Union (Malaga – La Rosaleda)
meanwhile … a volcanic eruption of Mount Galunggung in Indonesia sends up a cloud of ash which wipes out all four engines of, and nearly brings down, a British Airways 747 on route to Australia.
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America’94 – June 17 – Opening Matches
Bolivia v Germany (Chicago – Soldier Field)
Spain v South Korea (Dallas – Cotton Bowl)
meanwhile … American Football star and Hollywood actor OJ Simpson flees police in a long, low speed chase before surrending on returning to his home after the bodies of his wife and another man had been found murdered.
America’94 – July 2 – Second Round Matches
Germany v Belgium (Chicago – Soldier Field)
Spain v Switzerland (Washington – RFK Memorial)
meanwhile … Colombian footballer Andres Escobar (who had played in the First Round) is assassinated in Bogota.
Does anyone know of any others? -
Message 19
Posted by Charles Babbage (U2239092) on Wednesday, 7th July 2010
Not football but sport and war. There was the very famous water polo match between Hungary and the USSR at the 1956 Melbourne Olympics, played soon after Soviet tanks had rolled into Budapest.
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Message 20
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 8th July 2010
Saturday 30th July 1966
- England defeats West Germany in the World Cup Final at Wembley by two good, one dodgey and one non-goal to one good goal and a handball
- The US begins deliberate bombing of NVA troops in the Demilitarised Zone between South and North Vietnam
- (even more potentially devastating for humanity) "Batman", starring Adam West and Burt Ward receives its movie premiere in Austin Texas -
Message 21
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Friday, 9th July 2010
No Footballer marks space. He marks man-to-man , with the emphasis on 'mark'. Sweepers, liberos and cataneccio defensive system are as allien as quiche to the True Brit Game.
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Message 22
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Friday, 9th July 2010
Years ago my friend asked if I had watched the new Batman show, I replied that I did not believe the subject matter held any interest to me. He said to give it a try. Later I asked our four sons if they watched the program they said they did and enjoyed it, so i decided to watch it with them. For my money I thought it the best comedy show I had ever watched on TV, I used to watch it with them and enjoyed it immensely, a real spoof and take off of everyday life. Batman chasing crooks parks his Batmobile and searches for coins to put into parking meter. A policeman writing a ticket for a minor offense while an elderly women is being mugged, pure comedy. I'm sure the celebrity actors done the show for the shear fun of being in it.
I took two of the older sons to see the Batman Film, it was on an afternoon children's matinee. When the film started the noise was tremendous with the children shouting, remembering me of the Saturday's matinees in a Bristol (Eng.) Bug House on Hotwells. A number of us children would find an old woman to purchase our tickets as you could only enter with an adult, get her to say we were her children to raise our tickets. Once inside the only sound you could hear were the shouts of children, lasted the whole show. It reminded me that perhaps children are the same the whole World over, me witnessing children as a child in Hotwells then 40 or so years later in a California cinema the same actions. Does give one Faith in the future for human beings. -
Message 23
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 9th July 2010
Now you're talking! In Sutton cinema's matinee queue on Saturday it was not unknown for certain adults to "offer their services" (ha'pence a child) to parents (well, fathers) who could think of more liquid ways of killing two hours.
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Message 24
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
"Batman"Ìý
During Mexico'86 there was a First Round match between France and the Soviet Union. The French goalkeeper was called Joel Bats. It took 54 minutes before he was beaten by a screaming strike from a Ukrainean defender called Vasyl Rats.
Eight days earlier Spain and Brazil had also played each other in the First Round. In the Brazilian team was midfielder Leovegildo Junior while in the Spanish team was midfielder Juan Antonio Señor. To add to the confusion Junior was the older of the two, while Señor was the younger. In the end, however, experience beat youth and Brazil won 0-1. -
Message 25
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Sunday, 11th July 2010
'The French goalkeeper was called Joel Bats. It took 54 minutes before he was beaten by a screaming strike from a Ukrainean defender called Vasyl Rats.'- Vasyl was a real defender of the FC Dynamo Kyiv and always knew his proper job...of stopping people - if necessary by kicking lumps out of 'em...
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Message 26
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Sunday, 11th July 2010
if necessary by kicking lumps out of 'emÌý
The Mark van Bommel of 1986 perhaps?
I gather that Vasyl Rats was an ethnic Hungarian (named Laszlo Racz?). The fact that he played for Dynamo Kiev, therefore, seems quite ironic considering that FC Start (of the opening post) played Hungarian opponents on no fewer than 3 occasions during 1942. I suppose that being adjacent countries then there are quite a few Hungarians living in the Ukraine. Is there a sizeable Hungarian community in Kiev? -
Message 27
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Monday, 12th July 2010
Vasyl was born in Chernovtzy ( Zakarpat'ye )- in the South-Western part of the Ukraine. It is a very special region. There live together many Ukrainians, Hungarians, Rumanians and even Slovaks. It all comes from the place where the region is situated and its history. I respect footballers who play for their local teams, having been born within two hundred yards of the ground, preferably in the shadow of the stand. They learn to play by kicking a ball around in the cobbled streets ...England lost because the team tried to play a sort of cataneccio defensive system which chose to preach that Italian ??? coach , but it as alien as quiche to the True Brit Game.
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Message 28
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Tuesday, 13th July 2010
OUNUPA,
I'm very disappointed by the last world cup because I'm used to an offensive game by the Whites of Albion and catenaccio it's only good if you scoring first.
England needs young defenders and goleador; do you remember the 1996 team? it was full of champions. -
Message 29
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 13th July 2010
I'm used to an offensive game by the Whites of Albion and catenaccio it's only good if you scoring first.Ìý
That's true Alexander. England (and the other British teams) traditionally played at 100 mph from the start. This was surprising for continental opponents who, when they recovered from the shock, would realise that if they themselves played their slow, passing game then the Brits would eventually tire. This way England became a 'Quarter-Final' team. Strong - for sure - but never quite good enough for the top table. That was until about 10 years ago when the FA decided to go continental. This has, however, not born fruit. Personally I rather England played our traditional game and remained a quarter-final team then try to be something which we are not and then still not even reach the quarter-finals.
But then the FA is prone to daft decisions - such as boycotting the first 3 World Cups.
The World Cup in 80 years old today. Happy Birthday World Cup!
-
Message 30
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Thursday, 15th July 2010
Personally I rather England played our traditional game and remained a quarter-final team then try to be something which we are not and then still not even reach the quarter-finals.
I'm absolutely agree with you but England it won't be a quarter-final, it'll win the world cup because it's the condition making the difference and not talented players now.
An example Argentina Vs Germany. A great talented team versus a mediocre but fit and organized group.
The real problem is that Brit club teams play many cups (national and international) and league matches so, when it's time to fight for the home land, Rooney and C. are exhausted.
Finally, too less young English players in Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal: In economic hard times you have to bet on young people not on foreign people or in the future you'II have a mercenary football team than a national team (beyond Football - I have read some articles about the increased rate of foreign people in British forces and I don’t know if it’s a good policy, remember the last times of Roman Empire - have you anything to say about the matter?)
The World Cup in 80 years old today. Happy Birthday World Cup! And spend one's holidays in England, It’s your mother-house. -
Message 31
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Thursday, 15th July 2010
Oh, yes Alexander! England in 1966 was the greatest of them all !
And yet United were back in 1966 in the European Cup after an absence of nine years !!!! -
Message 32
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 15th July 2010
Was there a single player in the England squad who plays outside England, or even ever has played in a non-English league? It strikes me that playing one's domestic game increasingly as "support acts" for foreign imports can't contribute to good mental preparation when asked to "represent" England in major tournaments.
Mind you, they were great in their qualifying group. -
Message 33
Posted by Stoggler (U14387762) on Thursday, 15th July 2010
Personally I rather England played our traditional game and remained a quarter-final team then try to be something which we are not and then still not even reach the quarter-finals.
Ìý
A little surprised to read that, and it is that sort of attitude in the British game that always means we are behind other countries in terms of football.
Even Brazil started adopting the European style of game after the failed to win the World Cup from 1970 to 1994 - Dunga's Brazil are hardly pretty to watch and as much as we wish Brazil played like the 1982 team all the time, they don't simply because they realised that by constantly sticking to their national style the rest of the world was moving on.
Sticking to our national style led England to be thrashed by Hungary twice within 12 months in the 1950s - a huge shock to the English who were so sure of their superior football, but not a shock to continental teams who had been trying new tactics, exchanging ideas and developing the game. England did adapt slowly, but it took someone with the will of Alf Ramsay to get us to win the World Cup in '66 (with the help of home advantage admittedly), but Ramsay's Wingless Wonders left England with a new system that is still being played in one way or another now and which other countries laugh at as it's archaic!
Listening to Five Live last night were three guys talking about football (two of them were ex players, not sure about the other, a journalist I think) and one of them was going on about Roy Hodgson not having any experience at a big club; the guy managed Inter Milan for God's sake - if that's not a big club, I'm not sure what is! It was as if his CV outside England (and it's very extensive) had no relevance. It's that sort of insular attitude that pervades in the game in England (well, with many an English player and supporter at least) that means we will always be playing catch up with those willing to look outside their own borders for new ideas.
England feels it should be leading the world in football, but the reality of the situation is that that is far from the truth. The real heart of football these days in continental football, and it has been for a good number of decades now. -
Message 34
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Thursday, 15th July 2010
Let they say, men, what they want.
I say... England is always great - that's why there is no a single player in the England squad who plays outside England. -
Message 35
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Thursday, 15th July 2010
Mind you, they were great in their qualifying group.
I’m playing football well but not so good to play in World Cup but if your tongue as long as your legs you’II substitute Crouch in Roy Hodgson’s England (Stoggler, Inter is the queen of Europe but the Roy Hogson’s Inter wasn’t great; in my opinion it’s the right solution an English manager for England and Hogson could win something but I’m not sure, I prefer Ferguson; Ciao Roy and good luck) but an advice don’t play with Germany or the give you another 4.
Nordmann some statistics for your memory:
Italy titles: World Cup (1934, 1938, 1982, 2006), European Championship (1968)
Champions League titles win by Italian club: 12 Milan (7), Inter (3), Juventus (2)
Was there a single player in the England squad who plays outside England, or even ever has played in a non-English league?
Simple they doesn’t play football so well to be essential to win a competition like Champions League; another proof, the main Brit Clubs are full of foreigner people (Do you remember Mr. Ancelotti? Help me to remember please, he won the Premier league, FA cup, Community shield, isn’t true?)
Yes Italy have to play well if it wants win something of new but Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool buy Italians players, so they are better than yours (and now they do it more than ever).
Italian football have a simple characteristic makes champions: players, managers and clubs.
It’s your business if you aren’t competitive not mine. I’m happy that OUNUPA gives your moral aid to you Nordmann it’s so sad stay outside the real world.
The last thing, Latins play better than you Nord Mann (Brrrr…); I’m not Anglophobic but I don’t like who thinks to be the centre of the world.
Unforgettable Gascoigne.
I’m agree with you Stoggler.
Bye to every one
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