Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Sweden Neutral?
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Sunday, 30th May 2010
Sweden was neutral during WW2.
Did this prove positive for the Allies in the long haul?
What was the general feeling from both sides on their position?
Neutrality seems to be ambiguous for a lot of countries in that the end can justify the means.
Why was Sweden neutral when for example Norway, Denmark, Finland were not.
thanks IAN -
Message 2
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 31st May 2010
vesturiis
All the Scandanavian countries endeavoured to be neutral in WWII, but ultimately only Sweden succeeded.
Finland was neutral until invaded by the Soviet Union in 1939. Not too surprisingly, it then allied itself with the Axis in 1941. Post-war, it reverted to neutral status (having switched sides in 1944).
Denmark, of course, was indefensible from a German assault so always knew its neutrality was essentially in the hands of Berlin.
Norway was also neutral, to the extent of refusing substantive talks on co-operation in case of invasion. Unfortunately for Norway, it was in too strategic a location to be left alone.
Sweden had the adsvantage of a strong military, a more defenisble geography and the fact that it suited Germany better to have access to Swedish iron ore without taking the risk of the mines being sabotaged if Germany invaded. Particulalry as allied access to the same ore had been cut off by the occupation of Norway. Hence Sweden was able to maintain neutrality.
Swedish neutrality was useful to the Allies - it allowed Allied Naval Attaches to keep and eye on German naval shipping in the Baltic (and there seems to have been considerable contact between the Swedish Navy and these attaches). The Swedes were also quite lenient on interned aircrew (much more so than the Swiss) and indeed, late in 1944 actually allowed the repatriation of all the Allied aircrew who had washed up in Sweden, which solved a politically embarrassing problem for the USAAF (at roughly the same time, the authorties in Eire also started to send off course aircrew back across the border, sometimes even with their aircraft).
LW -
Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 31st May 2010
LW, there was a story that because of the number of aircraft landing in Sweden either because they knew they could not make England, or because the crew decided to end their war, that by 1945, on paper they had one of the biggest air forces in the world.
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Message 4
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 31st May 2010
A good book on Swedish neutrality during the Second World War is 'Diplomat - Memoirs of a Swedish Envoy in London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow and Washington' by Gunnar Hagglof (1972).
There's a remarkable episode in it from about autumn 1941 in which he flies from Stockholm to Berlin and then back to Stockholm, and then catches a train to Gothenburg and then flies from Gothenburg to Norwich then catches a train to London then a train back to Norwich then flies back to Gothenburg and train back to Stockholm. He says that when he is in London he has to pinch himself to appreciate that he had been in Berlin only 72 hours earlier talking to Hermann Goering etc and now here he was talking to Anthony Eden etc. Needless to say such a trip would have been virtually impossible for either Goering or Eden.
As an aside - the Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov flew from Moscow to London (westwards!) in May 1942 but, of course, he didn't stop off in Berlin for coffee. -
Message 5
Posted by baz (U14258304) on Tuesday, 1st June 2010
Eire was neutral, but tens of thousands of its citizens were either doing war work for the British or were in Britain's armed forces.
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Message 6
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Tuesday, 1st June 2010
Didn't Sweden sell ball-bearings to both Britain and Germany during the war?
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Message 7
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 1st June 2010
Jak, the answer is yes. The RAF used fast unarmed aircraft in BOAC colours to collect them.
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Message 8
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Tuesday, 1st June 2010
Thanks Grumpyfred.
I'd heard from two quite different sources about meetings in Sweden between Brits and Germans to sort out the quotas for each. I've long wondered if it was just a yarn.
Very interesting. -
Message 9
Posted by Stoggler (U14387762) on Wednesday, 2nd June 2010
Sweden's position wasn't an easy one to be in I imagine, being surrounded on all sides by German-controlled territory; trying to maintain neutrality in such a situation was difficult, with the Germans putting a lot of pressure on the Swedish government to allow German forces to cross Swedish territory for example. Some have critisised Sweden for complying, but the Swedish government were well aware that they couldn't antagonise Germany too much.
Some have also critisised Sweden for continuing to trade with Germany while the war was on, but again were they really in any position to do otherwise? They needed to feed and clothe their population and needed to trade, and being surrounded on all sides made it difficult to trade with non-Axis nations (and by antagonising Germany it wouldn't have taken much to put a full blockade into place - the geography certainly did not do Sweden any favours).
However, on the flip side, Denmark was able to save most of its Jewish population by getting them into Sweden (8,000 in number - close proximity helping there), and the Swedes welcomed them and granted them asylum. Also, from 1943 Sweden allowed and helped to train Norwegian and Danish resistance forces.
The Swedish also, by having legitimate contact with Germany, were able to provide some important information to the allies.
Hvae just found a Wiki article on Sweden's role in the war, which seems to be fairly balanced:
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Message 10
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 2nd June 2010
In addition to fast aircraft (IIRC Neils Bohr was brought out of Sweden in the bomb bay of a Mosquito), a number of MTBs were disarmed and re-registered as merchant vessels and employed on this trade.
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Message 11
Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Wednesday, 2nd June 2010
Gosh Stoggler you are using the forbidden
"Some" TWICE or more I might add.
Sorry WhiteCamry I couldn't resist. Hey today is my retirement day so I'm allowed a bit of merriment----right! -
Message 12
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 2nd June 2010
Vesturiis, welcome to the wonderful world of Stuff em I'm retired, oh and the job list. All those jobs that you have put off because of work will now catch up with you. But the up side. Since I was (Forcebly) retired. we've joined things like UA3 and attend different groups. We've done a course at our local adult college, and do Let's go out days, when we just look out the window, grab our coats, get in the car and go.
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Message 13
Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Wednesday, 2nd June 2010
GrumpyFred, thank-you for the nice note, my ambition is writing (vs my days pill counting)
Back to Sweden, once VEday came I wonder if there were reprisals for those favouring the Axis powers and would it be business as usual.
I remember reading a Heminway article about women having their heads shaven and he found it all hypocritical the way people hopped on and off the band wagon so to speak
thanks IAN -
Message 14
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
Vesturiiis, never heard of that happening in the likes of Sweden. After all there would be no real contact with the German troops. Oh enjoy the writing, Fiction or fact? I've had three books (So far) published and their sales in the US aren't to bad. One history (Fiction) one Si Fi and one a joint. Number four (Murder romance) is at the editing stage, while book five (Historical fiction) is at the rewrite stage.
Good luck.
GF -
Message 15
Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
Wow Grumpfred that is great,
I know this is the ultra secretive History board
but ANDREW is there any way of contacting or chatting with members beyond history queries.
My friend Spru (an MI5 agent) also would be interested.
But seriously I notice this board is losing it's steam. I really enjoy the WW2 history angle but maybe we could expand things??? -
Message 16
Posted by Andrew Host (U1683626) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
Hi Vesturiis,
Well the W&C board is by no means restricted to WWII! Pick any war you like!
The History Bar, in whatever its current incarnation, is the place for off-topic chat - here's the latest:
In terms of contacting members directly - that isn't possible here on the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ boards I'm afraid - but that doesn't stop you from meeting up elsewhere on the web...
Cheers
Andrew -
Message 17
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
OK I will wear a pink carnation and the greet words will be You, "It is hot enough for June." To which I will reply. "But you should have been here last September." Now let's see who knows where those words came from. Could almost be a friday question.
GF -
Message 18
Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
Thank-you Andrew for your response.
GrumpyFred just to be extra cautious I will be packing a pair of snowshoes
and calling out intermittanly in Icelandic
"Eg er fra Mogadishu"
bring Spruggles along and will be in touch on the HB off to Winnipeg for a bit
thanks IAN -
Message 19
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
GF
The weather exchange sounds familiar, but my heart has been wounded by a monotonous langour, so I can't find the energy to identify it properly.
(there's another one)
LW -
Message 20
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
LW It was the title of a spy film staring Dirk Bogard. He played a doctor ropped in to spying, and Hot enough for June was the words spoken to his contact.
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Message 21
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 3rd June 2010
GF
Indeed. Where does my langour come from; can you place it?
Cheers
LW -
Message 22
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Friday, 4th June 2010
Longest day.
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Message 23
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 4th June 2010
I would agree. "I've been sitting here for sometime studying the body and there is something wrong." Who said that and what was wrong?
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Message 24
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Friday, 4th June 2010
Longest Day as well - the Dead German's boots were on the wrong feet!
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Message 25
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 4th June 2010
Trivia - the dead German and his boots was a historical event. but Richard Burton's character was fictional, invented to get his name into the credits and boost box office (his character's injury was real though).
"One and a half. In five years."
"Well, it seemed like a lot at the time."
Anyone identify the film?
(Perhaps this should be on a game thread?) -
Message 26
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 4th June 2010
The Cruel Sea. One and a half Subs sunk.
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Message 27
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 4th June 2010
LW Good idea before we Hijack this thread.
Gf -
Message 28
Posted by ffiill (U3925987) on Monday, 7th June 2010
Neutral-you must be joking-ever heard of the Boffors gun? the Ack Ack gun? The pom pom gun.Those rapid fire multi barrel guns with the widened end to the barrel.We used them ;The Germans used them;the Japanese used them; the Americans used them AND the Swedish Royal Armaments Factory at Boffors in Sweden made them and sold them to everyone!
Just as in WW1 British Blue Circle Cement was sold to the Germans by British companies via yes you have guessed it SWEDEN.
And lets not forget that it was the Swedes who invented and developed high explosives in all their lethal forms.
There is no such things as neutrality only its convenience to profit whether Sweden;Spain;Switzerland.
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