Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
What went wrong in the somme
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by BuKHaRi-SM (U14420542) on Monday, 12th April 2010
What went wrong with the British plan of attack on the Somme?
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Message 2
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 12th April 2010
It didn't survive contact with the enemy.
But then, what plan does? -
Message 3
Posted by Stoggler (U14387762) on Tuesday, 13th April 2010
What went wrong with the British plan of attack on the Somme? Μύ
Are you talking about just the first day of the Somme (the bloodiest in British military history), or the whole battle (which lasted many weeks)? -
Message 4
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Tuesday, 13th April 2010
Nothing really went wrong with the plan. The plan would have worked although probably not as well as was expected. What went wrong was the artillery barrage it neither cut the wire nor destroyed the german trenches due to something like a third of the shells being duds. When the infantry attack went in there was enough wire left to delay them advance and enough germans to pretty much destroy the advancing troops.
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Message 5
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Tuesday, 13th April 2010
However, I think the first day 'Plan' was a bad one! IF the wire was cut, IF the Germans were battered, IF the resistance was light, it MIGHT have worked. Too many assumptions, and too little flexibility.
Decisions in the hands of Generals who had no real contact with the front line troops - failed to exploit the few successes, reinforced the failures, losing more men, etc.
A steep and expensive learning process, which led to very different plans being made for the next phase of the attack.
Like most wars - we fought, we failed, we learned, we got better, we ended up pretty good, but after an awful lot of casualties. -
Message 6
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Tuesday, 13th April 2010
In addition to the already-mentioned failure of the initial barrage to break the wire, the effect of the bombardment on German troops was overestimated, since their dug-outs were far deeper and stronger than was thought.
Furthermore, the infantry was ordered to walk through no-man's land in ranked formation, rather than run, or use a staggered run-and-take-cover approach. This was partly because the effect of the barrage was overestimated, partly because the troops were mostly inexperienced conscripts and the staff thought it wise to 'keep it simple'. In a few areas where the order to walk was ignored, the attack was more successful. -
Message 7
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Tuesday, 13th April 2010
an inexperienced british army was launched against a part of the line that was inactive - ie the germans had time to dig wonderful defences - deep and secure
the germans were notified by the fact that british newspapers had announced that bank holidays were to be cancelled because of a british offensive
a 3 day bombardment gave the hun a hint that an attack would happen
british troops walked across a no mans land that was covered by german machine guns
this was part of the problem
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Message 8
Posted by Wally (U14414065) on Thursday, 15th April 2010
As I see it it was mainly down to poor leadership, given that at the time social class equated to Army Rank it is not surprising that some of our Generals were not up to the job in hand. It is just a shame that the Soldier on the ground paid the ultimate price for such gross incompetence.
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Message 9
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Thursday, 15th April 2010
As I see it it was mainly down to poor leadership, given that at the time social class equated to Army Rank it is not surprising that some of our Generals were not up to the job in hand. It is just a shame that the Soldier on the ground paid the ultimate price for such gross incompetence. Μύ
So given what they knew at the time and without the benifit of hindsight what were their alternatives? -
Message 10
Posted by Wally (U14414065) on Friday, 16th April 2010
Without the benefit of hindsight they could have listened to the commander with the most experience in the field, Rawlinson. His first reaction to the situation was to nibble and worry at the German defences and consolidate any gains before moving forward. The fact that he was browbeaten into aligning himself to the Joffre/Haig plan to stroll across no man's land to the German trenches containing decimated and cowering troops was to say the least regrettable.
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Message 11
Posted by tucuxii (U13714114) on Tuesday, 20th April 2010
Isn't the truth that it was a success in that it took pressure off the French at Verdun where they were on the verge of collapse?
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Message 12
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 20th April 2010
That was one outcome. But the real measure of success for the Somme Campaign was that it forced the Germans to make a strategic withdrawal to the Hindenburg Line.
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Message 13
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Tuesday, 20th April 2010
hi lw
there was no success on the somme apart from the fact that for the germans it meant that there was never again a volunteer british army that they had to face
they faced and destroyed the elite of the british army - after that they faced conscripts
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Message 14
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 20th April 2010
st
Curious, then, that the German High Command regarded the Somme as the death of their army, rather than ours. (The Germans already had a conscript army, of course.)
And, as I pointed out in my previous post, they were forced into a strategic withdrawal. That rates as a success - the Germans only made the withdrawal because they had no other choice.
Your despised conscript army, by the way, was the one that won the war during the 100 Days.
I am afraid your determination to deny any kind of success to British military endeavour in the Great War flies in the face of the facts.
But, hey, who said historical analysis had to be based on examination of the facts?
LW -
Message 15
Posted by tucuxii (U13714114) on Wednesday, 21st April 2010
It marked the failure of the German strategy of fighting a war of attrition. Far from being destroyed the British army withstood the massive German counter-attack that followed.
It allowed the allies to continue the war winning strategy of fighting a war of supply and forced the Germans into the desperate measure of recommencing unrestricted U-boat warfare and sending the Zimmerman telegram which brought the US into the war breaking the stalemate on the western front. -
Message 16
Posted by tucuxii (U13714114) on Wednesday, 21st April 2010
there was no success on the somme apart from the fact that for the germans it meant that there was never again a volunteer british army that they had to face
they faced and destroyed the elite of the british army - after that they faced conscripts
Μύ
I thought the "elite" where lost in 1914 and the conscipts were trained to the same level as the volunteers many of whom perished when they were thrown into the Battle of Loos in 1915. -
Message 17
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Wednesday, 21st April 2010
The British 'success' on the Somme was surely the rapidity with which they learned from their disasters. The lessons were expensive, as they must be in war, when you are using green troops with even greener leaders. You can't go from a small, elite, well-trained force, like the 'Old Army' of 1914 to a huge mass of troops without loss of quality. Your soldiers, junior leaders, supply officers, colonels, generals, etc, are all inexperienced, and still learning their jobs. A lot of them died in the attempt, but the survivors did learn, and very well - The Army that chased the Germans across France and Belguim in 1918 was born on the Somme.
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Message 18
Posted by ffiill (U3925987) on Monday, 7th June 2010
The German were protected in deep bunkers built compliments of Blue Circle cement.
The shelling did nothing to break the wire just tangled it even more.
The shelling left few deep shell holes for protection-the Somme is chalk downland.
After stopping the shelling at 7-am to realy get the attention of the Germans at 7.20 just to make sure they fired off the Hawthorne Mine the worlds biggest ever conventional explosion which was heard in London.
The British soldiers were told it would be a piece of cake and told to walk slowly forwards in a line.
In the aftermath of the shelling whilst most Germans were still alive and kicking they did say that had the British charged at full pelt they were so shell shocked they would have run.
When my grandfather answered roll call on the 2nd July 1916 there were only 50 other men out of a Batallion strength over nearly 600 men.
No one in the 1st Batallion Bradford Pals made it the 200 yards from The Bradford Trench to the British front line and most died or were seriously wounded along the way.
This was repeated throughout the volunteer Batallions of Kitcheners New Army.
Serre remained a distant objective. -
Message 19
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Tuesday, 8th June 2010
1- The artillery bombardment was made with fragmentation shells so It wasn't damaged the German defense (Barbed wire)
2- Frontal attacks against machinegun positions
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