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Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Friday, 26th March 2010
The British Army and his paratroopers ? or the RAF with his brave aviators ? and least but not last The Queen of the Oceans: The Royal Navy.
I Think The Royal Navy becouse it was the propulsor of the British Empire.
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The Navy has blotted its copy book twice. First when its sailors from HMS Cornwall surrendered. Then when they refused to intervene because doing so could infringe on the pirates human right.
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, in reply to message 2.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Friday, 26th March 2010
You have criticised the Royal Navy but you haven't answer the question. Could you take a part please?
Could you say me you nationality? Are you German?
January 1941, was spent in Selborne dry dock where Cornwall had her rudder removed and refitted. In May she was in the Indian Ocean while on patrol the German commerce raider Pinguin was sighted near the Seychelles and was engaged. UNFORTUNATELY 200 prisoners along with 332 Germans were lost with the ship, Cornwall managed to rescue 60 crew members and 22 prisoners who were originally the crew of the 32 merchant ships the raider had either sunk or captured
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Alexander. I am British born and bred, but I was refering to the frigate HMS Cornwall, and the incident on the Iran.Iraq border the other year.By the best, that could mean anything. Special Forces? SBS or SAS. Standard troops. The Para's Royal Marines and Light Infantry, all who have shown that they can do more with less.
GF
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, in reply to message 4.
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Friday, 26th March 2010
the RAF with his brave aviatorsÂ
And don't forget the 'Gingers' - i.e. the engineers etc. Between 60% - 90% of the personnel of any given squadron could comprise groundcrew.
My grandad was a Battle of Britain Ginger. I'm therefore biased. And so in answer the thread question I agree with Winston Churchill. The best British Armed Force of all time was the RAF in 1940.
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, in reply to message 3.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
I've read about the episode and I would remeber you that Iran it's one of the major forces in the Middle East and it isn't safety for the peace of the area engaged with their forces (it could be created a CASUS BELLI PRO DOMO VESTRA), so it was a wise behaviour.
My question about your nationality it wasn't offensive or sarcastic. if you've thought that I say sorry.
Finally, the question it isn't about the valour of the British memnbers of the Armed Forces, that I think it was it is and it will be laudable from the high officers to auxiliary forces but it's about for e.g. the numbers of victories, the historical importance supported by objective facts or historians.
In simple words an opinion supported by objective proofs.
By the way, have a good weekend.
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The senior service would get my vote for having the most important role in the countries success.No navy,no,empire,no way of preventing invasion,no United Kingdom.That is not to take anything away from the RAF and its role in the Battle of Britain,just a comment that the RN had undertaken that role before the age of flight for 500 odd years.
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, in reply to message 4.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
To Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621)
yes, you're right; the title about RAF was only urged the debate.
Thank for your contribution.
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, in reply to message 7.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
Yes, I'm agree with you VF.
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As recent events have shown the RN is but a poor shadow of its former self. The spirit of Byng prevails over that of Nelson.
However back in its glory days of the 18th and early 19th centuries the Navy clearly dominated the seas and enabled the creation of the Empire and did much to shape the world we live in today.
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My vote goes to the Boy Scouts. They have adult leadership.
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Alexander, can I ask where you are from? Lord Mountbaton said it took 400 years to build a tradition and only minutes to destroy it.Over the years, the Royal Navy has always been ready to sail into harms way knowing that there was a good chance they would not survive, to give others a chance to escape. During W W 2 two merchant cruisers sailed to their deaths to draw fire while the convoys they were escorting fled.
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Grumpyfred,
It was Admiral Cunningham who said "It takes 3 years to build a ship and 300 years to build a tradition.I believe it was said at the time when Crete was being evacuated and the RN had suffered heavy losses (off the top of my head HMS Fiji and Gloucester had been sunk along with a number of destroyers and various other ships damaged).
I think that the RN lost its way pre 1914 due to over emphasis on spit and poilsh and above all,class.An example of this would be the adoption of the Dreyer fire control tables over the far superior "Pollen" system.Arthur Pollen wasnt a "navy" man and probably didnt go to the right school or have enough royal connections.If his system had been chosen for all RN ships Jutland may have turned out very differently.
However as you point out,whatver the faults of the Admiralty and some of its Admirals it invariably won the day.The RN tends to reflect the fortunes of the country as a whole,what happened on HMS Cornwall I would argue is nothing more than a reflection of government and society.I have a feeling that had the rum ration been available the result might have been different!I always thought that a lot of the agression read about in regards to 18th century battles was because the crew were probably roaring drunk!
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VF, you could be right. I think i may have mixed up the lines, as (Again I may be wrong) I seem to remember Noel Coward in his Mountbatten role in the film In which we serve, saying something like it.
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, in reply to message 12.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
To jaw-jaw is better than to war-war. (Winston Churchill, The New York Times -27 June 1954)
The world of WW2 it isn’t the contemporary world; Today, a war have economic and social consequence more important than yesterday, it’s called the globalization. Especially in multicultural country like France, UK, etc…; The global crisis has increased the public debt and war expenditures (the modern warfare has high costs than the past) can damage seriously welfare.
Well, patriotism is a virtue but you need to think about the consequences and sorry I never heard no one deride the RN for that episode.
Finally, Why don’t you guess my nationality?
Bye
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Hard to say. English isn't your first language. That shows in your posts. But you are welcome here.
GF
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, in reply to message 16.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
yes unfortunately English isn't my mother language but I'm trying to improve it.
I'm an Italian of the north.
I thank you for your hospitality and your messages.
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, in reply to message 17.
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
W gli Alpini!
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VF sorry to break the bad news but the RN are not the 'Senior Service'...well maybe in military terms, however they come second to our good friends at HM Customs when it comes to rank!
I remember watching a poor old matlow looking rather bemused when he had to lower a Frigate's Ensign when our Customs Cutter pulled along side and even more amused watching a fuming Officer of the Watch be-grudgingly giving him the nod.
It was also Customs Cutters that led the famous Spithead review...didn't want the RN to go thinking they were the top dogs!...bit off thread I know but can't let the side down...sorry!
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Peter,
Cheers for that , I never realised that!
Regards VF
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VF,
Not a problem, not many people do. RN have much better press...and lets face it, who is happy to see a Customs Cutter on the horizon.
If I remember rightly the RN borrowed our uniforms as well...though thats now a thing of the past thanks to the new UK Border agency and it's 'snazzy' train conductor uniforms.
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Alexander, we are all here to help each other. My wife and I have only spent a few hours in the north of your country while staying in Austria. We have always said we would go back one day. Jokingly though if I was asked to state who were the finest fighting force the British have ever produced, I would have to go for the girls of St Trinians school. After that, my fathers old force, the Royal Marines, although the Para's aren't bad.
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, in reply to message 18.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
yes, I live in the land of that traditional military corp.
It is a part of identy of the region like the BATTAGLIONE SAN MARCO e LAGUNARI (they're marines corps one of the Navy and the other of the Army).
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, in reply to message 19.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
Thanks Peter I can't imagine that.
In Italy it's the opposite.
Probably this situation is due that the ''Blue-water navy'' (expeditionary, in UK) was devoloped only with Henry VIII of England.
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Peter, VF
The Royal Navy is, of course, the Senior (Armed) Service.
I don't think the Customs service counts as "senior" to the RN. I believe HM Ships dip their ensign to Customs vessels to indicate their recognition of the authority of Customs, and by extension their right to board.
(This, incidentally, is what merchant ships are doing when they make the same gesture to warships.)
However, I'm sure that is what Customs like to tell themselves! Quite happy topointed at the relevant authority, though.
Having served in two of Her Majesty's Armed Services, and my wife in the third, I must admit I regard debates as to which is the "best" service unhelpful and divisive - hence my sarcastic earlier post.
Nonetheless, I am always fascinated by the folklore around various services' traditions.
cheers
LW
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, in reply to message 19.
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
the RN are not the 'Senior Service'...well maybe in military terms, however they come second to our good friends at HM Customs when it comes to rank!
I remember watching a poor old matlow looking rather bemused when he had to lower a Frigate's Ensign when our Customs Cutter pulled along side and even more amused watching a fuming Officer of the Watch be-grudgingly giving him the nod.
It was also Customs Cutters that led the famous Spithead review...didn't want the RN to go thinking they were the top dogs!Â
This reminds me a bit of a story (apocryphal?) whereby a RN ship was hosting visiting US Navy officers to dinner. When the time came for the toasts the British host and officers stood up along with their American guests to raise their glasses to "The President of the United States". This was then followed by a rendition of the US National Anthem. As protocol dictated the senior officer of the visiting Americans then replied with a toast "To Her Majesty the Queen". Quick as a flash all the RN officers present immediately sat down during the loyal toast and during the following rendition of 'God Save The Queen'.
Needless to say the still standing US officers were bemused by this seemingly disrespectful behaviour and did not realise that RN officers had special dispensation to remain seated during the loyal toast.
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, in reply to message 22.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
Grumpyfred,
Thanks for that news and friendship, now I have to go to watch the italian version of Midsomer murders.
bye
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Finally, Why don’t you guess my nationality? Â
In your OP, you said 'his' aviators, which probably means you speak a language that has noun gender.
it’s called the globalization. Especially in multicultural country like France, UK, etcÂ
Here you say 'the' globalization, which is sometimes used by Indians and Arab speakers; but what clinches it for me is when you say 'in multicultural country' without putting 'a' in between 'in' and 'multicultural'. This dropping of the article is typical of Slavic speakers, so I'm going to add in the fact you call yourself Alexander and guess you're Russian.
P.S. All the services are fantastic, but Special Operations Executive have a special place, for their bravery.
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Alex, just read that you're Italian. Thank God I'm not working for MI5!
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baz, we all know that MI5 only took people from Cambridge.
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baz, we all know that MI5 only took people from Cambridge.Â
That's just their cover story.
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Well all the ones the Russians recruited did.
GF
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, in reply to message 32.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Sunday, 28th March 2010
GF,
I’ve taken a look about St.Trinians school and I agree with you.
Italy has a long maritime tradition but the 9th Parachute Assault Regiment is considered the best in spite of that, many people wanna join in Guardia di Finanza (it’s likely HM Customs and Excise – HMCE).
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Alex, I trust you looked up the old St. Trinians films, and not the new ones, where not bad but not as good.
Fred
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, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Wednesday, 31st March 2010
It is not clear if we are judging by the standards of the time, or against all time.
If judging by the standards of the time, I think that it would be difficult to beat the Royal Navy of Nelson - almost certainly the most professional force of the age.
Not sure who/what I'd pick for all time. The Nelson Navy? The Grand Fleet? "The Few"? "The Old contemptibles" who convinced the Germans they were armed with machine guns?
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, in reply to message 35.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Wednesday, 31st March 2010
Sixtus_Beckmesser ,
I used the expression’ ‘’of all time’’ in the sense of against all time.
Because If I judge by the standards of the time I’m agree with you to identify more than one powerful force.
Shall I put to your list ‘’The Long Range Desert Group’’?
Grumpyfred ,
I’ve looked up both and you are right the new ones aren’t bad (in my opinion they’re more American than British) but they aren’t as good as the older ones (they're more British).
Good bye everyone
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, in reply to message 36.
Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Thursday, 1st April 2010
Indeed, Alexander.
And how about the longbowmen of Crecy and Agincourt, Elizabeth I's privateers and Cromwell's Ironsides?
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, in reply to message 37.
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Thursday, 1st April 2010
Those are all English rather than British.
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, in reply to message 37.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Sunday, 4th April 2010
I've to agree with Vizzer, They're best examples of formidable English forces but they fought before the Treaty of Union that was agreed on 22 July 1706.
After that Treaty, I think we can speak of British forces.
Well, I think so.
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Come to think of it, my vote would go to the Women's Royal Naval Service (WRNS) in the days when they were still a separate service. (Was it 1990 or 1991 they were absorbed into the RN?)
In terms of competence, professionalism and everything else, miles ahead of any of the men in all three services, and most of the women in the WRAC and the WRAF.
But maybe I only met the good ones?
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, in reply to message 40.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Monday, 5th April 2010
LongWeekend,
They're integrated into the regular Royal Navy in 1993.
Before 1993, all women in the Royal Navy were members of the WRNS except nurses, who joined (and still join) Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, and medical and dental officers, who were commissioned directly into the Royal Navy, held RN ranks, and wore WRNS uniform with gold RN insignia.
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, in reply to message 39.
Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Tuesday, 6th April 2010
"They're best examples of formidable English forces but they fought before the Treaty of Union that was agreed on 22 July 1706. After that Treaty, I think we can speak of British forces.
Well, I think so."
Then you really ought to have stipulated that you referred to the political, rather than geographical definition of "Britain". I have looked back through the messages and there was no such definition. However, I take your point if you wish to make such a distinction.
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, in reply to message 42.
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 6th April 2010
There was another thread discussing British military defeats in which a poster, referring to the Battle of Bannockburn, said that it was the skilful deployment of ponies by the Scots which contributed to the defeat on the 'British'. And on other threads regarding the Battle of Culloden, for example, the conflict has varyingly been depicted as one being between 'the English' and 'the Scots' or else between 'the British' and 'the Scots'.
The reality, however, is that both sides at both battles (Bannockburn and Culloden) were British.
The casual conflation of the word 'English' with 'British' is something which will only be increasingly challenged as time goes on.
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, in reply to message 43.
Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Tuesday, 6th April 2010
"The casual conflation of the word 'English' with 'British' is something which will only be increasingly challenged as time goes on."
I agree, its just that no-one made the geo-political distinction at the start of this thread. Now the distinction has been made, I am perfectly happy with it.
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Alexander
Thanks.
I have realised that what I remember is the point at which Wrens became liable for sea service (unless they had joined before a certain date) and they changed their insignia from the pale blue WRNS ones to the gold or red of the Royal Navy. (I remember the Wrens I knew being sad about that).
That event, I seefrom some quick research, was 1990. I hadn't realised the WRNS continued to exist until 1993.
My vote is still for the WRNS, though.
LW
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My vote goes to the Sub Mariners, without doubt the bravest of the brave. If you are in any doubt I suggest you read about the B11 commanded by Lieutenant Norman Douglas Holbrook. He and his crew stayed submerged for 46 hours in a tiny Submarine in order to navigate the dangerous waters of the Dardanelles strait. Once there the sunk the Turkish battleship Messudieh before retreating back to the Mediterranean under heavy fire.
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, in reply to message 46.
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Wednesday, 14th April 2010
Jasper Maskelyne and ''The magic gang''
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