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Black Hawk Down

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Friday, 26th March 2010

  Just saw a documentary on this incredible story and felt in awe of my neighbours to the South as they often take a lot of heat military wise.
  But don't understant why Clinton etc... were so quick to pull out and negate the whole effort. I think Somalia for years after was a complete mess as a country.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Wednesday, 31st March 2010

  Didn't the Clinton administration see Somalia as George Bush's war. It was widely felt (rightly or wrongly) at the time that outgoing President Bush had ordered the invasion as a spiteful 'welcome-to-the-Oval-Office' gift to the then President-Elect Clinton.
  
  During the election campaign Bush had gambled all on his foreign policy record (particularly his successful and hugely popular prosecution of the Kuwait War). But that war had ended 21 months before election day and was no longer uppermost in the minds of the electorate. Clinton on the other hand had struck a seam of public opinion when he had promised to 'focus like a laser beam' on the domestic economy. He had even famously taunted Bush - "It's the economy, stupid."
  
  The invasion took place on 5 December 1992 four weeks after the presidential election and seven weeks before Clinton's inauguration. It's not surprising, therefore, that the new administration in Washington was less than enthusiastic about the Somalia intervention.

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• Message 3

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  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 1st April 2010

  "...Didn't the Clinton administration see Somalia as George Bush's war. It was widely felt (rightly or wrongly) at the time that outgoing President Bush had ordered the invasion as a spiteful 'welcome-to-the-Oval-Office' gift to the then President-Elect Clinton..."
  
  
  
  
  The perception might have existed in some quarters, but Bush senior would not, in my opinion, stoop that low.
  
  
  
  
  "....During the election campaign Bush had gambled all on his foreign policy record (particularly his successful and hugely popular prosecution of the Kuwait War). But that war had ended 21 months before election day and was no longer uppermost in the minds of the electorate..."
  
  
  
  In the US they have, I believe, a saying : 'It is the economy, stupid', ie, people vote for their wallets, not freedom in Kuwait, Panama, or anywhere else. If Bush senior forgot that, or had no electoral leg to stand on in this regard, that is why he lost.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Thursday, 1st April 2010

  If Bush senior forgot that, or had no electoral leg to stand on in this regard, that is why he lost.Μύ Bush senior lost for one obvious reason: 'Read my lips - no new taxes' pledge that he violated during his term. Some of his Republican base defected to the spoiler Perot, and Clinton was elected with pretty low 43 percent of the vote, as I recall.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 2nd April 2010

  suvorovetz
  
  Bush senior lost for one obvious reason: 'Read my lips - no new taxes' pledge that he violated during his term. Some of his Republican base defected to the spoiler Perot, and Clinton was elected with pretty low 43 percent of the vote, as I recall. Μύ
  
  You recall correctly.
  
  
  
  There was yet another factor. The Baby Boomers were coming of governing age while the WW2 generation was heading for the retirement homes, if not for the grave. However, the GOP didn't get that message in time for the '96 election when Clinton won again by a bigger margin.
  
  

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Wally (U14414065) on Friday, 16th April 2010

  But don't understant why Clinton etc... were so quick to pull out and negate the whole effort. I think Somalia for years after was a complete mess as a country.Μύ
  
  Clinton was pressurised by the Republicans to pull out, in fact he stayed much longer than they wished him to. This is an interview he gave to Fox News where he was ambushed on this very subject.
  
  
  
  The relevant part starts at 4.15 on the video.
  
  There is also a Part 2 to this video both are worth watching as Historical Documents.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Friday, 16th April 2010

  i think you will find that the reality of black hawk down is different to the film
  
  far from being a somali version of the alamo - the attackers were the ones who were the underdogs
  
  st

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• Message 8

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  Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Tuesday, 20th April 2010

  My Somali friends tell me that the movie 'Black Hawk Down' was one of the biggest pieces of fiction they have ever seen come out of Hollywood....

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• Message 9

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  Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Tuesday, 20th April 2010

  Hi Shiv...
  
  Not sure what part of Black Hawk Down the movie was so much fiction, seeing the documentary and listening to the real soldiers they did not mention any problem that way.
  Hollywood of course can take some irritating liberties but in this case it seemed to be quite close to the actual event.
  
  thanks IAN
  
  

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• Message 10

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  Posted by tucuxii (U13714114) on Wednesday, 21st April 2010

  felt in awe of my neighbours to the South as they often take a lot of heat military wise.
  Μύ
  
  Are you an Afghan - it was the Pakistanis who rescued the Americans from the mess they got themselves into.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Wednesday, 21st April 2010

  As for me being an Afhgan
  I guess it is possible, Erik the Red did cover a lot of territory in his time.
  To say the Pakistanis bailed out the Americans is a bit of a stretch. They were slow as molassas getting to the site and then buggered off leaving a batch of soldiers to RUN their way out of danger.
  Not the greatest rescue misson of all time; I'll stick with the believe that the USA troops were incredibly ballsy during this misson that went awry.
  
  thanks IAN

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• Message 12

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  Posted by Wally (U14414065) on Thursday, 22nd April 2010

  My Somali friends tell me that the movie 'Black Hawk Down' was one of the biggest pieces of fiction they have ever seen come out of Hollywood....Μύ
  
  I find this criticism of a commercial motion picture designed to entertain and make money odd. If you want historical correctness read a book, or watch a documentary. Depending from which side the author of the book, or director of the documentary is from you will most likely still get a biased version. Try to remember that the book the film was based on was from the USA and although the Director was British, he chose the book for it's narrative and not for it's historical accuracy.
  
  The film could have been much worse, and although Scott changed the ending because he though it was too mundane (Remember he is out to make money) the film does not do the usual Hollywood trick of completely changing history. The Americans are shown in an unflattering light in that they are outsmarted and outmanoeuvred by Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The main criticism of the film is that the Somali people are depicted as two dimensional and the part in the rescue by Malaysian and Pakistani troops was underplayed.

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• Message 13

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  Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Thursday, 22nd April 2010

  the trapped soldiers - well equipped and armed were covered all night by helicopter gunships leading to hundreds of somali casualties and were rescued by a 2 mile convoy of armour and apcs - malaysians and pakistanis were heavily involved
  
  the somalis were armed with only ak47s and rpgs
  
  the film was fantastic - the courage of the us troops was immense
  
  but if the air cover was removed it would have been a different story
  
  st

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