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The Great Escape
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
On this day states that was the day of the Great Escape, but while we are told that it was the duty of all POWs to escape, (My late Father in Law did it twice) how many US pows tried to escape and how many made home runs?
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Message 2
Posted by LairigGhru (U14051689) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
I hope everyone realises that the story depicted in the film 'The Great Escape' was false, inasmuch as there were no Americans involved.
I am one of those who feels outraged by the film industry's liking to bend stories far beyond facts and truth. Usually one finds that the real story (i.e. the truth) was far more exciting and worthy of recounting than the adulterated version was. -
Message 3
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
³Ò°ù³Ü³¾±è²â´Ú°ù±ð»å…
I was almost at the point of making my own posting ref. Airey Neave’s escape from Colditz, from where I believe he holds the distinction of being the first British officer to make a ‘home run’. I read his book back in the early 60’s when I was still at school.
But I had it in my mind that his escape route took him several months and many thousands of miles, eventually getting home after walking across the Gobi desert…
With time on my hands now… I got his book from the library, and enjoyed rereading it, but there’s no mention of the Gobi crossing, it’s nevertheless still a cracking good read… but somewhere my memory has failed me.
Did any other Colditz escapers cross the Gobi, or did any of the ‘great escapers’ get home via the Gobi… it seems I’ve read two damned good escape books and got the two stories mixed up.
I apologise for going off your thread a bit, again, but wondered if there might be a connection… I’d dearly like to read what must be the ‘other’ book now, but have no title... any sugestions.
Kind regards… bandick… -
Message 4
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
³Ò°ù³Ü³¾±è²â´Ú°ù±ð»å…
Just a thought… probably stupid, but I’ll ask anyway, I don’t mind showing my ignorance…
What do you mean as a home run for US servicemen… frinstance… would making a home run, ie back to the US be classed as desertion for any US serviceman fighting in Europe.
Or… would an escape back to the UK be classed as a home run…?
Whereas on the other hand, I suppose it would be different for those fighting in the Pacific arena.
I can see many a difficult question being raised… i.e. was he deserting… or escaping…?
I suppose it would have to go before a courts marshal…
Regards… Bandick… -
Message 5
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
Bandick, I mean in the terms of escaping from a POW camp and making it back to lands held by the allies.
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Message 6
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
Gotcha… I thought as much… but in the vicinity of such learned types as yourself, thought it wise to clarify…
Any joy yet with the flossies…?
Bandick. -
Message 7
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
A couple of suggestions. One a remark about officers, and the other possibly a nick name for infantry. I think I can rule out the latter.
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Message 8
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 24th March 2010
GF
Feeling especially Grumpy today are we?
Just to clarify "duty to escape", though.
It is,and was, the duty of all ranks to avoid or evade capture by all reasonable means. This is why POWs were interviewed after both world wars and Korea, to confirm that they had not just given themselves up (a military crime).
However, it was only the duty of officers to continue to try to escape once captured, although other ranks were welcome to try, and suitably rewarded if successful.
It was, of course, more difficult for ORs to manage a successful escape beacuse they did not have the time for the kind of preparations necessary, as they were required to work for their captors. (It is notable that most successful ORs escapees from prison camps in Germany or the Eastern Occupied Territories were RAF NCO aircrew - the Luftwaffe did not make them work).
From the end of the Korean War, we and the US did encouraged all ranks to consider escape, but of course it has (so far, fingers crossed) never been put to the test in a general conflict.
I believe that from Normandy on, following the experience of the chaos arising from the Italian surrender, and German behaviour toward the Great Escapers and prior and subsequent threats, servicemen were told that if they could not escape before they reached prison camp, they were to sit tight and await liberation.
LW
p.s. and another thing, picked up from another message - the term is Court Martial, not Court Marshal. Martial meaning military rather than Marshal meaning very senior officer.
(I'm fairly grumpy as well) -
Message 9
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 25th March 2010
LW. Well I had just spent the day in hospital having tests, including a camera down my throat. LOL My late Father in Law Jack was a sergeant with a tank regiment (Well at El Alamain he was in seven in one day) He escaped twice,both times in North Africa but after his tank was shot up on the road to Arnham, he finished up in a camp that was attached to a concentration camp.
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Message 10
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Thursday, 25th March 2010
Greetingd GrumpyFred,
I note your observations concerning 'The Great Escape' of which I have seen once a long time ago and recall the rather silly portrayals, but what can you expect from an industry that relies on 'stars' and foreign money for production and distribution. The real objective I'm sure you know is to increase box-office sales, therefore the real story must be embellished to encompass the countries where the real money potential is embedded. Thus we get a silly interlude of the real hero who bounces a ball against a wall and tries to ride over barbed wire on a motorbike! But then how do you feel about the hatchet job done on Colonel Nicholson(and the real officer behind the story, Philip Toosey) in 'the Bridge over in the River Kwai'? As good as Alec Guinness was in the role, how my heart bled for the men and relatives of those that suffered at Tamarkhan.
Or the distortion of the truth, however slight, in 'The Dam Busters' or 'The Battle of Britain?'
Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
Regards, Spruggles. -
Message 11
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 25th March 2010
Oh I agree with all your comments, although British made war films seemed to closer to the truth (Well the old black and white ones anyway)Most films used the wrong type of aircraft. Longest day used twin seat ME 108s rather than 109s A lot of the tow A/C for the gliders were Stirling or Halifaxes. sadly though none survived so DC 3s were used for all towing A/C in the film. Dam Busters used Lincolns in the film. And so on, and as you say, the treatment of
Philip Toosey (From Merseyside) was a disgrace. You will have noticed though that in the film Great Escape, not one of the US actors was shot, only the British ones. -
Message 12
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 25th March 2010
It is notable that most successful ORs escapees ... were RAF NCO aircrew - the Luftwaffe did not make them work.Â
One of my office colleagues had been a RAF sergeant, was shot down and put in a PoW camp somewhere in eastern Germany. He didn't talk about it much.
One day, after an escape film had been on TV the night before ("The Colditz Story" or "The Wooden Horse" or some such), some young wags asked him about his escape attempts. I was surprised by his scornful reaction. "That was just for the *** officers!" he said. "They made us work. We were too tired after a day digging ditches in the fields to even think about digging tunnels." -
Message 13
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Friday, 26th March 2010
Hello GF,
I hadn't noticed the execution bit but it was a long time ago when I first saw the film but at least the Americans were left out of that scene so we can be grateful for that. Ah, the monochrome films. I personally liked 'Angles One Five,(overlooking the ending ... 'tell the Tiger I won't be able to race with him now,' etc) And The Cruel Sea, although I was sorry that it was not more faithful to the book.
It's a pity that we wont see the likes of them again. It has been estimated that it takes some six to eight years to get a film on the go in Britain, so I suppose the chance of a good film depicting the British involvement in WW2 fades as the years progress.
Regards Spruggs. -
Message 14
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 26th March 2010
S. I have most of those films (Thanks mostly to a certain national newspaper) Cruel Sea wasn't far off the book. I liked the Malta Story and like you, Angels one five. The Long and the short and the tall showed that the Yanks didn't fight the war in the east on their own. Up to then, it seemed every film regarding the british in the Far East showed us all in POW camps.
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Message 15
Posted by baz (U14258304) on Friday, 26th March 2010
It is notable that most successful ORs escapees ... were RAF NCO aircrew - the Luftwaffe did not make them work.
Quoted from this message
One of my office colleagues had been a RAF sergeant, was shot down and put in a PoW camp somewhere in eastern Germany. He didn't talk about it much. Â
My maternal grandfather was captured by the Germans in Libya while with the Northants regiment, handed over to the Italians (who treated prisoners abysmally), and ended up as forced labour in a coal mine in Czechoslovakia, from where, as my nan told me, he was liberated by the Russians.
When he came back he weighed 8 stone and had to have a mask made because of some disease he'd caught. She also said he didn't want to know his kids when he came home.
I would love to see a film made about guys like my grandad, and their story. -
Message 16
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 26th March 2010
These stories are very interesting.
I was particularly interested in the experience of the RAF NCO described. As I had posted, my understanding was that the Luftwaffe (who were responsible for aircrew POWs - hence the difference between Stalag and Stalag Luft) did not require them to work.
But I also understand that the Luftwaffe waqs not expecting anything like the number of aircrew POWs that in fact came there way. At least later in the war, some of the shotdown aircrew were accomodated in Army camps - Stalags. As Army NCOs wre required to work, perhaps this explains it?
Alternatively, I could be entirely out on this one - I have realisedthat one of sources is John Braine's novel "Room At The Top" and although it is autobiographical, I have no idea what his actual war service or rank was.
Anyone answer the question as to whether RAF aircrew NCOs prisoners all had to work for their captors?
LW -
Message 17
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 26th March 2010
GF, Spruggles et al
(GF, hope the tests come out ok)
I am inclined to give The Great Escape the benefit of the doubt, becaue it is not very accurate anyway (using the idea of composite characters to avoid too much criticism) and because the Americans do not steal anyone else's rightful thunder.
McQueen plays his standard loner character. The other three US stars play an Australian (James Coburn enjoying himself far too much), a Polish Canadian (Bronson) and James Garner an American volunteer with the Canadians (historically reasonable). As GF has pointed out,none of these characters is murdered, and neither of the Yanks makes a home run.
Compare that with the likely treatment today, where the escapers would all be Yanks, after their British comrades tell them it is too difficult (Von Ryan's Express, anyone?), except for the Brit who turns out to be the traitor. They would then all be captured, tortured and just as they were about to be shot, rescued by a crack Ranger team which had been forbidden to attempt the rescue by Churchill and Montgomery. On the way home, they would also destroy the main German V2 factory, thus saving London.
(But Jonny Depp's performance as a traumatised pacifist OSS agent, and Megan Fox's as the wife of the Camp Commandant who is secretly the leader of the German Resistance would both get Oscar nominations).
Cinematically, the thing about TGE that has always intrigued me, since I started taking an interest in such things, is that it is the real sequel to The Magnificent Seven, (and was intended to build on that formula) and like that film relies on a rousing score to drive along the slow parts of the film.
Cheers
LW -
Message 18
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 26th March 2010
GF
and another thing....did you see my response on your Flossie thread?
LW -
Message 19
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Friday, 26th March 2010
(But Jonny Depp's performance as a traumatised pacifist OSS agent, and Megan Fox's as the wife of the Camp Commandant who is secretly the leader of the German Resistance would both get Oscar nominations)Â
I'd watch that!
Thankfully we Brits never succumb to writing others out of history. You'd never catch us boasting about Britain standing alone against the Nazis in 1940, nor ignoring the crucial Polish contributions towards cracking the Enigma encryptians, nor refusing to let Polish veterans march in the parade at the end of the war.
As for yanks fighting the Pacific war alone,it's about time we scotched that myth and celebrated the Chinese effort tying up 80% of the Japanese war machine.
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Message 20
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 26th March 2010
LW. No I hadn't, and I think you have cracked it. Please stand up and take a bow. No indeed a lap of honour.
GF -
Message 21
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 26th March 2010
LW I like the plot, but you've missed them stealing the German Atomic bomb which they are just about to drop on London. They then take it across to the US just in time to find out that the allied bomb has failed. (No doubt due to the English members of the team who were under orders from their Russian masters to slow down the building while secretly smuggling the plans to Moscow)
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Message 22
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 26th March 2010
GF
Surely that's the sequel, where it is also revealed that Churchill deliberately suppressed warnings about Pearl Harbor?
I must admit, I wan't convinced by John Barrowman as Curtis LeMay. Or Daniel Radcliffe as Bomber Harris.
:D
LW -
Message 23
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
Come on chaps, you have forgotten the obvious here.
First, Matt Damon leads a squadron of all American Devastators to attack the Italian fleet in Taranto Harbor(spelling deliberate), then on to attack and destroy the Bismark(they know where it is because the daring Captain Rogers(Leonardo diCaprio) has stolen the Enigma machine and single-handedly has cracked the German codes) he then sinks the Scharnhorst, but fails to follow up with the Tirpitz because the British refuse to fit the latest American invention, radar, to his aircraft.
Disillusioned, he resigns his commission in the Fleet Air Arm, has a brief love affair with a certain member of the Royal family(Jennifer Aniston)before the President(Sylvester Stallone)begs him to sort out the British and guide them through the Qattara Depression(Keanu Reeves). He then instructs General Patton (Nicholas Cage) how to win the Battle of El Alamein. He wins the war by conducting the American invasion of France and is awarded an Oscar. -
Message 24
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
Spruggles
Damn. Your movie could gross more than mine! This is obviously going to be a summer for blockbuster war movies.
(However, I note one dangerous approach to accuracy in your treatment: There WAS a proposal that the US Army actually send an armoured division to join 8th Army. Patton offered to take command of that division. In the end, the plan was dropped and 8th Army just got the Shermans and Priests. I have Carlo D'Este's biography of Patton to thank for this piece of horrifying trivia) -
Message 25
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
I think I will stick with the story of John Wayne armed with the self loading six gun that all cowboys seemed to have in the westerns swimming across the Atlantic with his horse, then landing in France, fighting his way to Berlin single handed,then have defeated the Germans, realising that the Russian would be a problem defeating them on his way to deal with the Japs.
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Message 26
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Saturday, 27th March 2010
It's been done already.
Errol Flynn (OK, I know, but it was a Yank film) saying, at the end of 'Desperate Journey', after having sorted out the Nazis: "Now for Australia and a crack at those Japs!"
But he wouldn't have had any trouble with the Russians. They were on our side. Or, given the size of the populations, we were on their side. -
Message 27
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Sunday, 28th March 2010
LongWeekend,
Sorry about that. It just might be my over active subconscious that's at fault. However, I can feel another plot forming ... Burt Lancaster, inventor of the bomber of the same name ...
Regards,
Spruggles. -
Message 28
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 28th March 2010
Spruggles, GF
If you want a PROPER WWII escape movie, what about "Danger Within"?
Bernard Lee and Richard Todd as the two colonels, and just about every British "Officer type" actor (including that Attenborough specimen pre-luvvie days).
That was the way to make 'em.
LW -
Message 29
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 28th March 2010
There was a British TV series back in the 60s, so the chances are it was the Â鶹ԼÅÄ, all about escapes from POW camps. Although I can't remember its name.
GF -
Message 30
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Sunday, 28th March 2010
However, I can feel another plot forming ... Burt Lancaster, inventor of the bomber of the same name ...Â
Sheer brilliance!
Amusing though these plots are, I have the depressing suspicion that without Americanization these films would just never get made. The idea of celebrating war heroes is just anathema to the British film industry, unless you can cast them as working class heroes more victims of their own evil capitalist aristocratic officers than victims of the Germans. -
Message 31
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Tuesday, 30th March 2010
GF/LW,
The Â鶹ԼÅÄ did the 'Colditz Story' series, but that was in the 1980's, is that what you were referring to? Also, I must confess to having a soft spot for 'Spycatcher'(I think that was the title)and was it Bernard Archer who played the role of Oreste Pinto? I liked they way he winkled out the truth from those dastardly German agents. I think that was in the 60's. -
Message 32
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Tuesday, 30th March 2010
LW,
Sorry forgot the bit about 'Danger Within' and you are quite right. I seem to remember enjoying 'The Wooden Horse' too at the time; has that ever been shown on the tele? -
Message 33
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 30th March 2010
S, it wasn't the Colditz story. It was a whole series about escapes from different POW camps. Then at the end the program would tell you how long the prisoners were at large, or whether they made a Â鶹ԼÅÄ Run.
GF -
Message 34
Posted by baz (U14258304) on Tuesday, 30th March 2010
The Â鶹ԼÅÄ did the 'Colditz Story' series, but that was in the 1980's, Â
I remember Colditz being on on thursdays, during the early 70s, the same night as TOTP and Monty Python... a teenage boy's night in. -
Message 35
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Tuesday, 30th March 2010
Yes Colditz was a good programme… with the man from uncle, but the better one I think was the more recent Colditz story… where they interviewed the internees… some remarkable tales. I recall one chap relating how delighted they were when they caught a pigeon, and him being so pleased he had a bone to suck, and then a cat went ‘missing’, and reference to people becoming ‘Jam happy’… it’s amazing anybody ever got out… but I think one of the most remarkable episodes was about the planned escape that never got off the ground.… that of the Colditz Cub… the glider they built in a concealed section of an attic.
There was a program that followed some time afterwards, with the accurate reconstruction of the glider, observed, aided and abetted by the two that built it in the attic, and were planning their escape in it. When it took off, it looked so beautiful and graceful… was airborne for 4 minutes or so and landed perfectly… they shed a tear or two, and so did I.
Hats off to you all… bandit. -
Message 36
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 31st March 2010
I should give up on the bizarre plot lines if I were you. None can match the actual film on TV yesterday.
Two American gunslingers join the army in 1917 (yes, I did say 'gunslingers' and '1917'). The bit I saw involved them shooting down a German heavy bomber. One of them shot the crew man climbing out on the wing (don't ask), the other one shot the captain. All accomplished with revolvers. They then stole a French truck for no apparent reason. Probably forgot which side the French were on. At this point I relocated my remote. -
Message 37
Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Wednesday, 31st March 2010
"I seem to remember enjoying 'The Wooden Horse' too at the time; has that ever been shown on the tele?"
Gets a very occasional outing on TV - an interesting fact is that actor Peter Butterworth, of Carry On fame, was one of the original members of the wooden horse escape plan in Stalag Luft III. -
Message 38
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Thursday, 1st April 2010
S_B,
And Peter Butterworth ... one of the best and most underrated actors of my generation(in my opinion). How I used to enjoy his occasional tele appearances. -
Message 39
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Thursday, 1st April 2010
Tim Track,
You re-located your remote!! Now I'll never know how it ended - oh Sob! -
Message 40
Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Thursday, 1st April 2010
Quite agree, Spruggles.
Interestingly, Talbot Rothwell, writer of most of the middle period (ie: the best) Carry Ons was also a prisoner at Stalag Luft III - he and Peter Butterworth were apparently leading lights of the Camp theatre company.
Sixtus
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