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About Crusade
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Susanna huang (U5377085) on Tuesday, 16th February 2010
I am study something about the Middle Age,and I have a question----If the crusades had ever used the water route?
If the crusades are army and navy combined? -
Message 2
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 16th February 2010
"...If the crusades are army and navy combined?..."
Well, you have to remember, each crusade was different. Consequently, each crusade used differing travel and battle tactics.
Most organised crusaders walked to the Holy Land. It was cheaper to walk, as well as keeping the army together. However, many did use ships if they could afford the fare.
Also, because the Holy Land is, basically, a coastal area, ships were regularly used in support roles for land troops.
Ships were also used to supply besieged coastal cities such as Acre.
The fate of the children's crusade, who opted for the sea route is particularly bizarre. They sailed from Marseilles and disappeared, probably captured by, or sold to, pirates -
Message 3
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 16th February 2010
I am study something about the Middle Age,and I have a question----If the crusades had ever used the water route?
If the crusades are army and navy combined?Β
Short answer is yes.
An English component sailed to the second crusade though they only went as far as Lisbon and captured it from the Moors.
Both French and English crusaders sailed to the Middle East during the third crusade.
The fourth crusade, ineptly, hired a Venetian fleet for the journey, but they hadn't enough money. The Venetians made them attack the Byzantine Empire instead of paying the debt. -
Message 4
Posted by Susanna huang (U5377085) on Wednesday, 17th February 2010
dear Tim and Cloudy
Thanks for your feed back!
I have other questions!
If the crusades were about 11c--13c?
If the last crusade failed from the Turky Empire?
Besides,if the Black Death has anything to do with the Crusades?
I believe that the crusades produced the age of Renaissance!
At last,one more question!If Pope had any relationship with Byzantine Empire?
If the Byzantine Empire joined the Crusades?
(They are Christine ,too!)
It is very lucky for me to learn from you!Thanks! -
Message 5
Posted by Susanna huang (U5377085) on Wednesday, 17th February 2010
Tim,
I have no idea about children's Crusade!
Do you teach me? -
Message 6
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 17th February 2010
"...I believe that the crusades produced the age of Renaissance!..."
Well, I would say no, the Renaissance would have happened anyway. However, cultural contacts with Islam did influence the renaissance, but the crusades were not the key factor.
"....At last,one more question!If Pope had any relationship with Byzantine Empire?..."
This is a separate large scale history in itself ! About 50 years prior to the first crusade, the church split in the great schism. The Pope in Rome had no effective authority over the Byzantine empire.
"...If the Byzantine Empire joined the Crusades?..."
No, they kept out of it as far as they could. In fact, the Catholic crusaders attacked Byzantium before they reached the Holy Land.
Try this site for an overview of the Children's crusade. Never was there a more pathetic story in history.
On the schism :
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Message 7
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 17th February 2010
Timtrack I wish to make a correction:
The Byzantine Empire did not keep itself out of the Crusade. It was the Byzantine Empire that created the idea of the Crusades for the very simple reason that the Comnenian imperial family, namely Alexios Komninos had asked it. The idea was that since the Byzantines did not want to pay for an army to defend their interests, they could employ the increasing fanatism of the westerners to use them instead. Until the 3rd crusade, the overuling leader was the Emperor no matter if in practice each crusading western nobleman was more or less on his own defending his own interests, often of purely looting nature, and thus often attacking local christians as much as muslims.
The Komnenoi family as well as their related Doukes (whose members had served as "Katepano" in Italy, the word means "the one above", traditional title of Byzantine governors of South Italy) represented all those BYzantine investors that were investing in the fiscal paradises of North Italy, mainly Venice and Genova, throughout the 10th and 11th century and who had largely intermarried with local Italians to the extend that by the end of the 11th century an important part of Byzantine nobility was already italo-byzantine - in the following century, the 12th up to 1/4th of Konstantinople and other key port cities such as Trapezounta in Black sea were Italians. There was not necesasirily a huge movement of Italians in these traditionally Hellenic lands of the Byzantine Empire but more of a combination of some intermarriage and a "conversion" of local population for tax-evasion, i.e. one to save his business would chase a Venecian or Genovese citizenship so as to continue doing work tax-free thanks to the immensely treacherous tax-system that Alexios had placed and his descendants could never again take back as Italians had already grown enough powerfull to blackmail (effectively there were military operaitons once, when John Komnenos, the only reasonable of these Emperors tried to stop all that).
So Byzantines not only were implicated but were instigators of the Crusades, up to the 4th where again it was themselves that brought the crusading mauraders to sack their own city in a suicidal manner! But in terms of participation, they had participated in some parts of the crusades whenever it was their interest to do so.
However, the idea of crusading for christianism was completely foreign to Byzantines a civilised society that viewed war as a failure of all political means and as the last resort. It became even more foreign as Byzantines received the attacks and finally the total destruction by crusaders to the extend that the invading Turks were seen as the "least of evil" (a reason for the turkish prevailing - imagine it took them 400 years and almost 300 years of crusading pillage and catastrophes to make any success). -
Message 8
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 17th February 2010
Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:39 GMT, in reply to Susanna huang in message 1
The Templars and Hospitallers (particularly the latter) maintained fleets, including transports and dedicated fighting galleys. At at least one siege of a coastal town (sorry, can't remember which) the Crusaders converted ships to take floating siege towers so they could attack the seaward defences.
If memory serves, the wars against the Ottoman Empire in the 16th century were considered crusades, and they included nautical elements, most notably the naval Battle of Lepanto in 1571. The expedition launched using the Spanish Armada in 1588 was also a crusade! -
Message 9
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Thursday, 18th February 2010
Hello Susanna huang,
The following links might be interesting and maybe helpful, concerning cursades by the Knights of Malta, they had used the water route.
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Message 10
Posted by Susanna huang (U5377085) on Thursday, 18th February 2010
Tim
The children's crusade is very much similar with the legend of St.Joan of Arc.They believed in miracle,but failure was their fate!Just as Juses Himself didn't escape the crucifixion!Do we laugh them fools?
Nik
The merriage between Byzantine and Roman Catholic world might be one of the reason that builds Renainssence.Because Byzantine kept many treasurable manuscription from Roman Empire!
Norman
You explained a wide defination for Crusade!
Thanks!Everyone!!
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