Wars and Conflicts permalink
Downfall (film about Hitler)
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by Landwehr (U1664897) on Saturday, 30th July 2005
Has anyone seen this? Bruno Ganz is brilliant as Hitler but I was disturbed by the way the Waffen SS were shown purely as heroic fighters with no hint of their atrocities.
There was a very interesting article in the Guardian (April 7) that pointed out a number of issues that were ducked or distorted by the film. For example, the SS doctor Ernst Günther Schenck, who in the film goes on a mission to find medical supplies, was involved in experiments on concentration camp inmates. Another SS man, General Wilhelm Mohnke, is depicted as a humanitarian in spite of having ordered massacres of British & Canadian prisoners in France.
As for Traudl Junge herself, she was hardly the politically naive figure shown by the film, as both her father and husband were members of the SS and she was herself active in various Nazi organisations from the 1930s. -
Message 2
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 30th July 2005
Landwehr,
I asked you on the Bookshelf board, but Thomas is in weekend and will only reply (if he want) on Monday.
And I am still busy with the Greek Nikolaos in a lengthy conversation on the "Ancient History" (old boards). John Hes is still in holiday mood I presume. But he was nevertheless so friendly to say "hello" to me on these boards.
Kind regards.
BTW. I have already explained a bit my point of view to you on the old "Bookshelf" board. -
Message 3
Posted by John Heseltine (U1755615) on Sunday, 31st July 2005
Has anyone seen this? Bruno Ganz is brilliant as Hitler but I was disturbed by the way the Waffen SS were shown purely as heroic fighters with no hint of their atrocities.
There was a very interesting article in the Guardian (April 7) that pointed out a number of issues that were ducked or distorted by the film. For example, the SS doctor Ernst Günther Schenck, who in the film goes on a mission to find medical supplies, was involved in experiments on concentration camp inmates. Another SS man, General Wilhelm Mohnke, is depicted as a humanitarian in spite of having ordered massacres of British & Canadian prisoners in France.
As for Traudl Junge herself, she was hardly the politically naive figure shown by the film, as both her father and husband were members of the SS and she was herself active in various Nazi organisations from the 1930s.Â
Hi Landwehr,
I've seen the film "Der Untergang" twice and have the DVD. It is a very powerfull film which, in the words of the director Oliver Hirschbiegel, tried to convey the events that happened in the Bunker durng the last days of the Third Reich. Important to the central core of the film was that the characters were real and not caricatures. Steps were taken to ensure that those events were accurate. Hirschbiegel also walked a fine line of not glamourising Nazism. IMO he succeeded.
For the Guardian to criticise the film on the points you mention, I find particularly curious. The film centred on the Bunker, NOT on the backgrounds of Schenk and Mohnke BEFORE the events portrayed in the film.
I agree about Bruno Ganz's performance. However I should also mention those of the three women in the film; Juliane Kohler (Eva Braun), Corinna Harfouch (Magda Goebbels) and Alexandra Maria Lara (Traudl). Each was brilliant and in Harfouch's instance, downright scary.
Cheers, hes -
Message 4
Posted by TerribleTomas (U1765869) on Sunday, 31st July 2005
Why we never hunted Mohnke down and tried him I'll never know.
Thought it was a very powerful and sometimes disturbing film, Frau Goebbels killing her children and the scene where the Nazi blows himself and his family up were shocking seems in some ways they were victims of their own popaganda but many Russians arrriving Berlin would be understandlngly vengeful. -
Message 5
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Monday, 1st August 2005
Hello Landwehr
I saw the film "The Downfall" and I also have read a book, written by the German Historian Joachim C. Fest with the same titel. The difference between the film and the book is, that the film was made upon the book by Taudl Junge and with assistance by Joachim C. Fest. After I have read the book by Joachim C. Fest, I think that he described the last months of the Third Reich and Hitlers last days better than the film and the book might based more correctly on details as the film has shown it - although there were also some scenes which really might happen as it was played by the actors.
No doubt about Bruno Ganz, he is at all an brilliant actor. About the way the Waffen-SS were shown in the film, I would say that the scenes were also nearly real shown and I think that even among the members of the Waffen-SS there were some which were more or less fanatical in that situations. When it came to the end in Berlin, the people acted like in anarchical situations, murdered old men who doesn´t saw any sense to fight against the Russians and knew that the war was lost and also Berlin will fall.
Interesting your paragraph with the articel in the Guardian from April 7th. I wouldn´t believe in all what that paper wrote, because I have in general not that much trust in boulevard papers. It would despite that interesting from where they took the informations that the father of Traudl Junge was an member of the SS. I know that Traudl Junge was not married when she got the secretarian job by Hitler in 1943, his husband was one of the servants at the Reichskanzlei, so she married Mr Junge during the years from 1943 to 1945. In the book of Fest is written, that during the last days, most people married after Hitler has married Eva Braun in the bunker.
The acting of Wilhelm Mohnke in the film is an historical fact, confirmed also by others who served in the bunker at the Reichskanzlei.
Traudl Junge said that she wasn´t an convinced National Socialist. When it is true that her father was an member of the SS, than it could had been the truth what she said about herself, but netherless she was in her twenties when she got his job as secretarian by Hitler and she was ten or eleven on age when Hitler came to power. So during the years from 1933 to 1943 she might had been an member of the BDM (Bund Deutscher Mädel / Union of German Maids) at least. I haven´t read her book, but I have another book - written by the longest secretarian of Hitler, Ms Schröder. She was from 1933 to 1945 Hitlers privat and secret secretarian and I haven´t read the book yet. I will start to read it in the next time.
Regards
Thomas -
Message 6
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Monday, 1st August 2005
Hi John
As I wrote in my reply to Landwehr, I have read a book, written by the German Historian Joachim C. Fest, who assisted by the making of the film, and I think that the book is better than the film, because he is more accurate by the historical facts as the film. Although I have changed my opinion about the film, the film is still good and maybe more directed upon the book by Traudl Junge.
Kind Regards
Thomas -
Message 7
Posted by John Heseltine (U1755615) on Monday, 1st August 2005
Hi Thomaß,
Nice to "speak" with you again. Interesting background info.
Trivia fact that I read recently. There are virtually no recordings of Hitler's "normal" speaking voice, only his shouting/emotional/barking at rallies etc. On Sunday June 4, 1942 Hitler attended a party given for the 75th birthday of the Finnish Field Marshall Mannerheim. The Finnish national security service secretly taped a private conversation between the two lasting eleven minutes. Two copies were released by the National Archives in 1992. Bruno Ganz studied a copy in preparation for his role in the film.
Warm Regards, John. -
Message 8
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Monday, 1st August 2005
Hello John
Thank you for the reply and the informations you told me.
It was nearly a fortnight ago that I saw on the German TV Channel RTL 2 an documentary made in GB last year about the plot of July 20th 1944. I already wrote about that in an conversation with Paul on the old board. The faces of the actors in the played scenes were by computer animation changed to the real faces of the historical persons. So it was with Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin and also the other people, like Stauffenberg etc.. Interesting to that was too was, that the documentary showed what each person (Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin) did on the same day and how they reacted - and decided whether to take actions on that occasion or not - when they got the informations that an plot against Hitler has occured by German militaries.
Non of the big three would had taken any step for negotiantions with the plotters. They had one target and they insisted by unconditional surrender of Germany and it doesn´t matters whether Hitler survived the plot or not. The intention by Churchill and Roosevelt was to breake the German Militarism for once and all, and the intention of Stalin was more to take territories from Poland and keep it and further more to extend the influence of the USSR in Europe.
This documentary - made by the British - was one of the best about the plot of 1944 I ever saw.
Kind Regards
Thomas -
Message 9
Posted by John Heseltine (U1755615) on Monday, 1st August 2005
Hi Thomaß,
Thanks for the info. have you any idea what the programme was called?
Warm Regards, John. -
Message 10
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Monday, 1st August 2005
Hi John
In German language the titel was "Die Verschwörung" in English I would translate it into "The Plot". The documentary was made in 2004 in Great Britain. The documentary was shown on the German TV Channel RTL 2 (Radio Television Luxemburg 2 - that is the full name of the Channel) on Wednesday, July the 20th 2005, at 20.15 h MESZ.
I am sorry but I have no further informations about that.
Have a nice evening.
Kind Regards
Thomas -
Message 11
Posted by John Heseltine (U1755615) on Monday, 1st August 2005
Thanks Thomaß.
Cheers, John -
Message 12
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Tuesday, 2nd August 2005
Hi John
After some researches I did on the internet, I found the English original titel of the documentary:
Virtual History - The Secret Plot To Kill Hitler
Made by: Discovery Channel, David McNab, GB 2004.
I hope that helps you a bit if you want to do some further researches for yourself interests.
Kind Regards
Thomas -
Message 13
Posted by Scottish Librarian (U1772828) on Tuesday, 2nd August 2005
Of course Fest's book is better factually. This is because the film is just that; a film. I wasn't aware that at any point Der Untergang claims to be a documentary, but is instead a dramatic reconstruction of a historical event. In saying that it is excellent, Bruno Ganz is fantastic and the scenes within the bunker are pretty accurate, based as they are on several eyewitness accounts. The scenes outwith the bunker and the inclusion of Schenk (the proverbial good German of the piece)are not as accurate. However, i fail to understand the uproar this film has caused, particularly in Gemany. The charge being that this fim dares to portray the human side of Hitler. As far as i was aware Hitler was actually a human who was capable of kindness and humour in his private sphere. If anything this makes the fact that he could order the annihilation of the Jews even more frightening and perhaps this is why certain people are uncomfortable with it. They would prefer to view Hitler as some alien monster, a comic book villain as it is more comforting to think this.
P.S. I thought the film was fantastic -
Message 14
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Tuesday, 2nd August 2005
Hello gorman1
I agree with your opinions about the film Der Untergang.
To your last sentences about Hitler, I agree with you too and I think, that after 60 years it was time that we in Germany made an film about Hitler. And yes it is really more comfortable to see him only in his bad manners. The fact that he wasn´t an alien monster and the art of the film makers to show the people his "human" side caused that uproar about the film, because there wasn´t any film before which attempted to show that part of Hitlers personality. I think it was good to made such a film, because this might bring the people to consider a bit more, why so many people voted for him, followed him and got in such histerious exitment when he hold his speeches, not only at the "Reichsparteitage". The shame after the war, when the people in Germany were confronted with the attrocities, committed by the Nazis (including the holocaust) led some people to think about that "as if Hitler and the Nazis had came from another planet". They were too deep shocked about all that and although they knewed very well that this kind of thinking was only a way to flee from the truth, but they might couldn´t stand the truth.
Greetings from Germany
Thomas -
Message 15
Posted by John Heseltine (U1755615) on Tuesday, 2nd August 2005
Hi Thomaß,
You make avery good point in your answer to Gorman1 regarding how a "normal" person can create inhuman policies. This IS a disturbing factor in the film and further.....
The question arises; is this capacity part of the human characer? How many people have been convicted of horrific murders/crimes, only to be described by people who knew them as "nice", "friendly" or "kind".
Kind Regards, John -
Message 16
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Tuesday, 2nd August 2005
Hi John
I think that most of the "Mass-Murderers" in history must had have some parts of their personalities which either had convinced their environment as the best man or had some handsom kindnes to blind the people.
But the aforesaid things might be only two of all, because look at the biography of Stalin, for example. I think that mankind has all parts of good and bad in itself and it depends on the environment and his way of life in which direction each part of his personality is built stronger or less, the bad and the good side of the personality. I know that this view might be too superficial and from the point of view, that each personality is more or less individualistic it is also too complicated to give statements in general. This might take us too far from the point of an overview of the special personality.
If you would like to take that in an easy sentence, you could think about Doctor Jakil and Mr Hide. I think that splitted personalities like the aforesaid might compareable with Hitler and other bad people. But this view isn´t that easy as it might sound and as I wrote before, it is too complicated.
In answer to your question I would say yes, it is. And finaly it is always the question from which point of view somebody will be seen and described. If only from the bad or good side, you have only one part, but if seen with both sides, you might come closer to the real point of view.
As you might know from past discussions, you also might know what I think about Hitler and his personality. I have no positive assassment about him and still keep my opinion. He was a very bad man by considering all what he did and in the end, there might be so much positive experiences from people who met him, worked for and with him, and wrote about that. He brought Germany to the absolutely zero point and we might be lucky, that after all, Germany itself got the chance to come back into the civilisaised nations.
Kind Regards
Thomas -
Message 17
Posted by John Heseltine (U1755615) on Tuesday, 2nd August 2005
Hi Thomaß,
You have now touched upon the subject of evil and the very thing that makes people uneasy; is evil an integral part of the makeup of the human character?
This leads onto the further uncomfortable queries, am I capable of an evil act and can I control evil inclinations?
Gareth and myself waltzed around with the nature of evil and it's prescence in society some months ago - I can't remember if we ever reached any conclusion, if in fact any conclusion can ever be achieved.
Kind Regrads, John. -
Message 18
Posted by TerribleTomas (U1765869) on Wednesday, 3rd August 2005
Thomas
Thank you for your reply to my previous message (as Terrible Tom) that suggested I visit the Bendler Block I found it very interesting but unfortunately as we were on an organised tour we only had a very limited time and as my German is v basic I had to really concentrate on a few of the boards and look at the pictures on the others!. I also visited Plotensee, the Seelow Heights The Topographie de Terrors and many other very interesting places. I shall have to visit again and spend more time there to have a proper look round
The new Canaris biography 'Hitlers Spy Chief' written by John Bassett is well worth reading if you can get hold of it in Gernan/Germany. The book expresses the view that the Unconditional Surrender Demand had a demoralising effect on Canaris and the opposition to Hitler
Finally I will try and get around to putting a review of the book on this newsgroup soon.
Danke
Tom -
Message 19
Posted by Ballzack (U1796487) on Thursday, 4th August 2005
I did want to see the film, haven’t yet; although if it is so sanitized, perhaps it isn’t worth it.
Is it out on DVD yet?
I find most, if not all, filmmakers, have an agenda or bias, especially when it comes to history. I suppose that can be said about historians as well, though, not as rampant. Not to be offensive to any US posters but American filmmakers are the most blatant; twisting and rewriting history to a maddening extent. -
Message 20
Posted by Landwehr (U1664897) on Thursday, 4th August 2005
I wouldn't call it sanitised and I wouldn't want to put you off seeing it. But just remember this is a feature film produced by the entertainment industry, not a historical documentary. If you want the full facts you have to do some reading.
-
Message 21
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005
Hi John
In addition to me last message on that subject I can only say again that it all depends on the personality of each person and in general, everybody has its good and evil parts of his character. But it depends very much on the evironment of each person which part is stronger built up and lead the person. For such crimes as Hitler ordered to do, it is necessary to have an big fellowship, without that he hadn´t could acted as hid did.
But you are right in saying that it is very hard to achieve any conclusion on that matter. It is too complicated and to throw all people into the same chisma would be wrong (by trying to compare themselves with Hitler or other criminals).
Kind Regards
Thomas -
Message 22
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005
Hi Terrible Tomas
Thanks for your message and I hope that you enjoyed your stay in Berlin very well.
I know that when you visit an town by an organised tour you have not the time for looking after things you are special interested.
When I was in Berlin, the first time after the fall of the Berlin Wall, I spend four days in Berlin and also had organised tours by bus. The good thing about that was, that we were going to the Sans-Soucie Castle and the Cecilienhof Castle at Potsdam. In Berlin itself I also hadn´t got the time to visit the Bendler Block, but when I travelled one year later again to Berlin - then I organised my holiday by myself - I was alone and visit the places I was interested.
I never visited Plötzensee, the Seelow Heights, The Topographie of Terror. I also don´t know if the Topographie of Terror was already to visit in the year 2000, when I was at last in Berlin.
I took notice about the book titel you mentioned about the biography of Canaris and I think it might be available in German language too. When I will find the time too read that book, then I might buy it.
I will look on these boards after your review of the book.
Kind Regards
Thomas -
Message 23
Posted by Martin Raynes (U1656364) on Tuesday, 30th August 2005
I agree. It is an absolutely compelling film
-
Message 24
Posted by Martin Raynes (U1656364) on Tuesday, 30th August 2005
Why we never hunted Mohnke down and tried him I'll never you.Â
He is still alive aged 94 living just outside Hamburg. He spent a long time in a Russian prison camp and was released in 1955. He was simply detained without charge or trial by the Russians. When he returned no one thought to pursue him for his crimes in 1940 against Btiish prisoners of, I think, the Warwickshire regiment. About ten years ago there was a move to try him but the authorities decided to let sleeping dogs lie. I suppose the thinking was that his 10 years in a Russian prison camp was sufficient punishment. I rather suspect there are many who might disagree. -
Message 25
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Tuesday, 30th August 2005
Martin, I hate to contradict you but SS Brigadefuhrer Wilhelm Mohnke died on the 6th August 2001 at the age of 90.
-
Message 26
Posted by Martin Raynes (U1656364) on Tuesday, 30th August 2005
Martin, I hate to contradict you but SS Brigadefuhrer Wilhelm Mohnke died on the 6th August 2001 at the age of 90.Â
Please do not hesitate to correct me. I am glad to have been disabused. I obviously was looking at an old web site.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Â鶹ԼÅÄ iD
Â鶹ԼÅÄ navigation
Â鶹ԼÅÄ links
Â鶹ԼÅÄ Â© 2014 The Â鶹ԼÅÄ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.