Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
On this day
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Β
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 17th December 2009
Today, the board states the German battleship Graf Spey was skuttled. But was she a battleship? She was rated at between 10'000 and 12'000 tons which was the size of a heavy cruiser, although her guns were heavier. I know she was called a pocket battleship, but....
-
Message 2
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Thursday, 17th December 2009
Well she was known by the Germans as a "panzershiffe" which I think means "armoured ship" (I think,anybody out there speak german!).
Personally I think she was more of a well armed armoured cruiser.I believe that she dubbed "pocket battleship" by the british press.In reality she was no more a battleship than HMS Glorious and Courageous,but they were the first large modern vessels the Germans had laid down since WW1 and they appeared on paper to be extremely potent.More to the point supposidly only 3 RN vessels could be certain of destroying her Hood,Renown and Repulse as she was too quick for the battleships of the time to catch her and too strong for a cruiser to engage.
In practice it turned out differently. -
Message 3
Posted by Parti-NG-ton Blue (U13898629) on Thursday, 17th December 2009
Hi VF,
Slightly off topic but was it the Courageous that was sank in late 39 early 40?
I am sure my uncle was on the courageous. He said (and he was similar to Uncle Albert) that it was the first British ship sank in WW2. I know for a fact he was on said first ship but as I was very young at the time he told me I could have got stories confused. -
Message 4
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Thursday, 17th December 2009
Hi Partington Blue,
HMS Courageous was sunk on the 14th September 1939 by U-29 with the loss of 518 lives.
He said (and he was similar to Uncle Albert) that it was the first British ship sank in WW2. I know for a fact he was on said first ship but as I was very young at the time he told me I could have got stories confusedΒ
I believe that she was the first British WARSHIP to be sunk.The SS Athenia sunk earlier in the month was a civillian ship.
Neither her or her sister could be considered "lucky" ships.HMS Glorious has the dubious honour of being the only carrier to be sunk in a surface action.She was sunk by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on the 18th June 1940 in somewhat murky circumstances along with her two escorting vessels. -
Message 5
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Thursday, 17th December 2009
"HMS Glorious has the dubious honour of being the only carrier to be sunk in a surface action"
Although only a CVE, but nevertheless a carrier, the USS Gambier Bay was also sunk in a surface action off Samar during the Battle of Leyte Gulf by the IJN cruiser Chikuma. -
Message 6
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Thursday, 17th December 2009
Oopps
Of course you are right Steelers ! -
Message 7
Posted by Parti-NG-ton Blue (U13898629) on Thursday, 17th December 2009
I believe that there are pictures in my family somewhere of Courageous sinking. It was taken from a rescue boat. My Uncle (not same as was on the ship) is going to hunt it out for me.
-
Message 8
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 30th December 2009
The Germans would probably agree with the idea that the "Panzerschiff" was not a battleship - though they were replacements for the pre-dreadnoughts Germany was allowed to retain under Versailles, the KM later reclassified them as "cruisers".
-
Message 9
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Saturday, 2nd January 2010
I was always told that the `pocket' battleship was a scaled down battleship to avoid size limitations set out in the Versailles Treaty.
If my memory serves me well HMS Renown and her sister ship whose name does escape me for the moment, were abbreviated at the stern so that they fulfilled the same criteria.
The Graf Spee had higher calibre guns than was usual for a cruiser of that period. This is why the Royal Navy had so much difficulty in dealing with the Graf Spee and were so pleased when they secured the right result. -
Message 10
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 2nd January 2010
Not Renown.
Rodney - and Nelson.
Nicknamed "Cherry Tree" class as they were "cut down by Washington" -
Message 11
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Sunday, 3rd January 2010
Thanks for the correction: naval history was my brother's bag not mine.
-
Message 12
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Sunday, 3rd January 2010
Versailles stated that Germany could only have 10000 ton ships.Given the tonnage it was expected that Germany would opt for either a cruiser or a coast defence ship.I dont think anybody expected the germans to come up with a ship armed with 11 inch guns,diesel engines and endurance of 10000 odd miles!
As Urnungal pointed ot the Nelson and Rodney were basically cut down versions of the G3/N3 battlecruiser/ship designs which had been cancelled under the conditions of the Washington Treaty.A real shame as the G3's would have been magnificent ships.
Vf -
Message 13
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Sunday, 3rd January 2010
It's doubtful if the Germans could have even attempted the "panzerschiff" on a true 10,000 Std Disp - they were well over 12,000.
Re Renown - you may have been confused because Renown & Repulse were originally to have been battleships - Tiddley Quid class - but were cut down from 4 to 3 15" twin mountings when recast as battlecruisers. -
Message 14
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 6th January 2010
Wed, 06 Jan 2010 21:24 GMT, in reply to Urnungal in message 13
I have a vague feeling that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were also classified as panzerschiffe, but they are generally referred to as battlecruisers; the only thing they really had in common with the Graf Spee and her sister ships was the same main guns - 11in - but even then they carried nine to the Graf Spee's six. -
Message 15
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 6th January 2010
Salmon & Gluckstein replaced the 3 further "panzerschiff" that were allowed to Germany. Again, they were much larger than the official figures.
-
Message 16
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Wednesday, 6th January 2010
Were the pair not a result of the 1935 Anglo German Naval Treaty?(I think it was 1935).The new German Navy could be 33% of the size of the RN.In any case as Urnungal points out they were some what bigger thab the 26,000 tons they were declared!
Vf
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ iD
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ navigation
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ links
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.