Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Agincourt by Juliet Barker
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Sleepysimplysimon (U14248671) on Thursday, 10th December 2009
Just finished reading this book which I richly enjoyed but did feel took too sympathetic a stance about Henry V during the Agincourt campaign. I decided to e mail Juliet Barker with this point and she very kindly replied. She, not surprisingly, did not agree and stated that she had turned down a project to do a biography of Henry V simply because she could find no empathy with him as a person.
I wondered if anyone else had read the book and had any similar thoughts on her approach. -
Message 2
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 10th December 2009
SSS
It has been some time since I read the book, but what I remember would bear out Ms Barker's own view.
The book sets out to explore the reality of the Agincourt campaign, in the context of the time. I don't think she was unduly sympathetic to Henry - he comes across as rather cold.
The thing that fascinated me most was the detail of the payments made to nobles and knights for the troops they brought along.
Cheers
LW -
Message 3
Posted by Sleepysimplysimon (U14248671) on Friday, 11th December 2009
LW,
Yes I thought that interesting too, especially the fact that archers came cheaper than crossbowmen. Agincourt is known as a victory for the English longbow but the irony is that had Henry had more money he probably would have had considerably less than he did.
My point about her being a little too sympathetic about Henry was really about some of the more cynical actions that Henry took which even when one considers the different conventions of the time seemed to be more born out of malice than any necessity. In fact many now believe Henry, rather than the myth that has grown up around him, to be a cruel and coldhearted monster who was motivated by greed, arrogance, self indulgence and religious fervour. I have not read it yet myself but I believe Ian Mortimer's book "1415: Henry V's Year of Glory" very much picks up on these issues. -
Message 4
Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Friday, 11th December 2009
A new series of 'Great Lives' started on Radio 4 on Tuesday and the subject was Henry V. Juliet Barker took part, as did also Henry's descendant Sir Ranulph Fiennes!
There are still three days to go before the programme is deleted from Radio 4's 'Listen Again' list, so I urge anyone with an interest in this thread to take quick action. -
Message 5
Posted by Sleepysimplysimon (U14248671) on Friday, 11th December 2009
Thanks for that LairigGhru, just caught it. Very interesting but I still think they give a romanticised view of Henry.
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Message 6
Posted by baz (U14168465) on Saturday, 12th December 2009
Napoleon, a product of the Enlightenment, committed far worse atrocities than Henry V; yet he is admired by many. Genghis Khan, who would be sectioned under the Mental Health Act today, is revered as a hero in Mongolia. Attila the Hun has streets named after him in Hungary, and Stalin is virtually deified in Georgia.
So, what's the problem with Henry V?
Is it that Henry is an English hero, and that Anglophobia is acceptable amongst the self-appointed intelligentsia? -
Message 7
Posted by Sleepysimplysimon (U14248671) on Monday, 14th December 2009
We are discussing History here and as such it makes very little difference whether Henry V was "English" or not. In fact one could argue that although he was King of England he saw himself as King of the French as well as did all English kings at this time.
What is perhaps more important is whether the stereotype image of him as a warrior king who stood for honour and chivalry is a accurate one. I think it is perfectly valid to challenge that view by examining his actions. Certainly some of his actions call this view into question such as the staving of the women and children at the seige of Rouen which seems to have been inspired by nothing more than malice.
Henry obviously had many things going for him, he was strategically gifted in battle and had an easy charm that calmed a disturbed kingdom when he came to the throne. His war on France was only possible because he was able to reconcile all the disruptive factions back in England. However his war on France has been interpreted as the actions of a religious zealot. This is open to debate and I think it is perfectly valid to question the perceived image in the standard history books. -
Message 8
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Saturday, 2nd January 2010
Like LW I found the detail in Juliet Barker's book absolutely fascinating, more so than Henry or the battle itself. The early chapters outlining how the campaign was funded and where the money came from, and what all was involved in setting forth on the ships.
The one thing I found very interesting and which must have been omitted on purpose was any discussion of his early death and how that fitted in or would have fitted in with his certainty that god was on his side.
I thought Juliet Barker did picture Henry quite favourably and defended many of his actions that have been criticised. Perhaps because she understood, in a way many modern historians and the general public don't, just how important religious belief and the impact of God was on the medieval mind.
I think it was the best historical non-fiction book I have read.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 9
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Sunday, 3rd January 2010
Caro,
Absolutely agree with your post. I would also add that the modern mind seems to misunderstand the true importance of the strategic marriage and the provision of a male heir to the throne.
Regards Spruggles. -
Message 10
Posted by Derek (U13878838) on Tuesday, 5th January 2010
Happy New Year everyone.
I very much agree with the last two posts. It is important, when assessing the motivations of people in history, to approach such issues with as clear an understanding of contemporary morals, beliefs and social interactions as you can muster. I recently read Ian Mortimer's "Time-Travellers' Guide to Medieval England" which challenged a lot of my precomceptions about the period. To understand the medieval world, you should try to mentally inhabit the medieval world: you shouldn't try to foist 21st Century attitudes and aspirations upon it.
I read Juliet Barker's book a couple of years ago and was amazed at the depth and detail she had unearthed and mastered. I've been interested in the story of Agincourt for many years and have spent time walking the battlefield, but Juliet Barker's book brought the whole campaign to life for me in a way I've seldom experienced. -
Message 11
Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Friday, 8th January 2010
"To understand the medieval world, you should try to mentally inhabit the medieval world: you shouldn't try to foist 21st Century attitudes and aspirations upon it."
My dear Derek,
I could not agree more - your important point above should be borne in mind by anyone studying or writing on history of any period, not just the Middle Ages. Sadly, however, it seems all too rare these days,
All best,
Sixtus -
Message 12
Posted by Derek (U13878838) on Friday, 15th January 2010
Hello Sixtus,
Yes, I do believe the views I expressed can be applied to all of history. For example, it's often said how tough life was in Nelson's navy but, bearing in mind how hard life was in general at that time, would it have been viewed as a particularly horrific life?
Best wishes
Derek -
Message 13
Posted by Eamonn_Shute (U14223612) on Saturday, 16th January 2010
I have just finished reading the book, which I also enjoyed very much.
Barker portrays Henry as a highly competent soldier and king, but also a rather cold, aloof person. However, early in the book she says that even before he became king he was popular at court, with parliament, and with the country as a whole. So I am still uncertain about his personality.
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