Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
Could the Rock have held?
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
We have just returned from a trip to Spain, and made a visit to Gib. One has to wonder if the Rock could have held out against an attack from the mainland. So, it is August 1940. Spain decides to launch a landward attack against the rock. Franco asks for assistance, and Italy offers its Airforce, and Germany J 52s along with airborne troops. Guns on the Spanish side make the airfield impossible to use thus leaving the defenders open to bombers. At dawn, after many days of being softened up, Glider troops attack key points while Spanish ground troops attack across the border, reaching the open ground of the airfield. With Gib. gone, Force H would either have to withdraw back to the U K, or to the eastern end of the Med. Malta could not be supplied and would fall. With no Malta to interfere with supplies crossing to North Africa, the 8th Army would face a more stronger foe. So why didn't it happen?
G F -
Message 2
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
GF
In August 1940, I think the Luftwaffe's paratroopers were preparing for landings somewhere else. And I'm not sure the Italian Air Force had a bomb capable of penetrating the Rock.
The non-essential civilian population had been evacuated (ironically to southern England, where they were exposed to more bombing than they would have been in Gib), so no chance of forcing a surrender on compassionate grounds.
And Franco did not wish to take his damaged country into another war so soon. If Seelowe had been successful, though, he might well have changed his mind.
LW -
Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
L W no bomb could damage the rock short of a nuk. but could the Gib have been stormed. Those who reckoned it couldn't did so on the grounds of a ground attack. Air power came later, so with no fighters to defend British airspace, it wouldn't matter if the Italian bombers and fighters were second line, they would rule the skies. If Franco decided that it was in Spains interest, his followers would attempt to storm Gib. The rock itself could be defended, but the town, and the docks would be more dificult. I saw some Second World War guns still in place while we where there. I think they could have been 4.7s A A, or 4inch High angle (They were set in what looked like ships gun turrests) Any offers on which.
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Message 4
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
GF
I'm sure I have a memo to self which says "Do not do Fred's research for him unless he promises you a credit". However;
PRINCESS CAROLINE'S BATTERY - One 6 inch Mk VIII
TOVEY BATTERY - Two 6 inch Mk VIII
WHITE ROCK AA - Two 3.7 Inch
SIGNAL HILL AA - Two 3 inch 30 CWT
GLACIS AA - Two 3,7 inch
MONTAGUE BASTON AA - Two 3.7 inch
DETATCHED MOLE AA - Two 30 inch 20 CWT
RECLAMATION AA - Four 3,7 Inch
DEVILS GAP BATTERY - Two 6 inch Mk VIII
OIL TANKS - One 6 inch Mk VIII
BREAKNECK BATTERY - One 9.2 inch Mk X on Mk V mounting
LORD AIREY'S BATTERY - One 9.2 inch on Mk VII Mounting
OIL TANKS AA - Two 3.7 inch
MARTINS BATTERY - Two 4 inch QF
O'HARA's BATTERY - One 9.2 Mk X on Mk VII mounting
SPUR BATTERY - One 9.2 Mk X on Mk VII mounting
LEVANT BATTERY - One 9.2 Mk X on Mk V mounting
EUROPA ADVANCE BATTERY - Two 4 inch QF
WINDMILL HILL AA - Four 3.7 inch
BUFFADERO BATTERY - One 9.2 Mk X on Mk V mounting
'P' EMPLACEMENT - Two 9.2 inch Howitzers
SOUTH BATTERY AA - Four 3.7 inch
LIGHTHOUSE AA - Four 3.7 inch
WEST BATTERY - One 9.2 Mk X on Mk V mounting
GENISTA BATTEY - Two 6 inch Mk VIII
NAPIER BATTERY AA - Four 3.7 inch
SOUTH MOLE BATTERY - One 4 inch QF
(not my research, admittedly)
At least one of the 9.2 mountings was brought to back to UK reasonably intact, and is at the IWM Duxford, next to the old station firing range (where I saw it in the Summer).
I agree the Italians and Spanish could have established air supremacy, but where would it have got them? The defenders didn't need the town, the harbour could be temporarily abandoned and nothing could touch the people inside the Rock. Would Franco really have been prepared to have taken the casualties?
Cheers
LW -
Message 5
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
L W LOL. I enjoyed our visit to Gib. and the trip to the top of the rock was inspiring. There are signs at the border saying British out of Gibraltar, although 1000s of Spanish work there.After reading about the fall of Singapore, I have often wondered if Gibraltar could have fallen. No matter how well a fortress is built, if enough force is thrown against it, in time it will fall.
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Message 6
Posted by hotmousemat (U2388917) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
I think it was accepted that Gib could have been taken. After all, you did not need an assault - only the ability to dominate the air. It would have been enough to make it useless as a base.
But if Franco had allowed that, then we would have responded by taking the Canary Islands (which would have been useful). And of couse we would have destroyed Spanish trade.
As long as he was a potential ally, the Axis tried to woo Franco. But if he had agreed and given them what they wanted, he would have instantly become their dependant. Sensibly, he prefered to keep things as they were. -
Message 7
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
We have just returned from a trip to Spain, and made a visit to Gib. One has to wonder if the Rock could have held out against an attack from the mainland. So, it is August 1940. Spain decides to launch a landward attack against the rock. Franco asks for assistance, and Italy offers its Airforce, and Germany J 52s along with airborne troops. Guns on the Spanish side make the airfield impossible to use thus leaving the defenders open to bombers. At dawn, after many days of being softened up, Glider troops attack key points while Spanish ground troops attack across the border, reaching the open ground of the airfield. With Gib. gone, Force H would either have to withdraw back to the U K, or to the eastern end of the Med. Malta could not be supplied and would fall. With no Malta to interfere with supplies crossing to North Africa, the 8th Army would face a more stronger foe. So why didn't it happen?
Μύ
As most folks know, Franco was determined to walk the tightrope of neutrality. He knew enough of history not to tag along in other peoples wars and run the risk of being ripped apart in end-of-war 'share-outs' of the spoils of victory (the carve-up of Turkey in WW1 for example). Elsewhere on here you are accused of not wanting to do the research
... here's a bit of help and stimulation :-
See ..."2.2 World War II years (1939–1945)" in the following.
<
cheers,
alec
's advocate -
Message 8
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
alec
If you research mine and GF's posts, you will see my accusation's of his soliciting research are a running joke and have been for years.
If you're not careful, he'll write into one of his scenarios and something highly improbable will happen to you
LW -
Message 9
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
Alec, I do research when writing, but this was a why. Franco's republicans were fanatics, and even up to the late 1960s saw Gibraltar as an insult and kept the border closed. They did of course turn a blind eye to midget submarines sailing from their port to attack shipping in the harbour, and passed on information to Germany.
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Message 10
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
L W would I do that!!!!!!! I'm always looking for a new villan. My next book(s) are at the editing stage. A short SiFi, and a murder romance.
GF -
Message 11
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Monday, 23rd November 2009
posted by GrumpyFred (msg no 9)
Alec, I do research when writing, but this was a why. Franco's republicans were fanatics, and even up to the late 1960s saw Gibraltar as an insult and kept the border closed. Μύ
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You say <<>> ???
Well, research again Fred ... the Republicans were the legitimately elected government that Franco's totally illegitimate unelected Nationalists WERE FIGHTING.
As a DICTATOR, a republic was the last thing he wanted !! Yes, HE and his acolytes were a bit fanatical ... but they had no desire, money or equipment whatsoever, to fight wars outside their borders - they were aware of the limitations of their present well knackered situation. All they wanted to do was to consolidate their take-over, over one or two decades if necessary. The post war consolidation was to be, and was, a continuous ongoing extermination of ANYBODY anti catholic church and/or with socialist ideas. Go to to see some of the things built by, as late as the 60's, the use of suspected-folk as slave labour; many of whom were worked to death, dying mainly due to unimaginablely dangerous working conditions.
Go see < Yes, el Valle de los Caidos, (valley of the fallen) ....
Rather than keep imagining what big guns and things can do to people and places ... go visit the place Fred ! - well impressive ! You walk through the entrance shown ... the tunnels are in the shape of a cross - at the intersection of the cross piece with the upright you will find the Dictator-beggar's mausoleum.
And !!! ... climb up to that hilltop cross - it's one of the most impressive things you will ever see ... the blood and sweat of many many dying men went into that !
cheers
Alec's advocate
PS ... Phillip 11's (he of 1588 fame) El Escorial is just down the road ... worth even more of your time fred. -
Message 12
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 23rd November 2009
On the list for the next visit.
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Message 13
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 25th November 2009
As a matter of interest, what happened to the Spanish volunteers that fought for the Axis on the Russian Front. How many survived either as prisoners or made back to Germany? Where they then made POWs or just quietly returned to Spain.
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Message 14
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Wednesday, 25th November 2009
As a matter of interest, what happened to the Spanish volunteers that fought for the Axis on the Russian Front. How many survived either as prisoners or made back to Germany? Where they then made POWs or just quietly returned to Spain.Μύ
go on Amazon for "Hitler's Spanish Legion: The Blue Division in Russia" and read the reviews.
cheers
alec -
Message 15
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 25th November 2009
gibraltar has always been open to a land attack from the spanish mainland - which would probably been successful
the problem for spain is that since the rock was ours, an attack on the rock meant open war between GB and spain
something they were always going to lose
in ww2 franco was neutral until he saw which way it panned out - if stalingrad had fallen and the ussr had been defeated u can bet that spanish troops would have taken the rock
from the sea and air it was a fortress - from a land attack = the european singapore
st -
Message 16
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 25th November 2009
Al, I have looked up the Spanish involvement, and although it covers the so called volunteers. I say so called, because later Franco sent conscripts. The Germans found though the the Spanish fought bravely. Most of course were Civil war Vets. There is no record of what happened to what happened to those who declined Francos orders to come home.
GF
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