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On this day: 18 November

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009

  '1916: The Battle of the Somme ends after more than four months of fighting and 60,000 Allied soldiers killed.'
  
  So we didn't kill any Germans?
  
  Not wishing to be flippant but the battle was arguably just as disastrous for the Germans as for the Allies - hence the famous quotation of a German captain that the Somme was "the muddy grave of the German Field Army".
  
  Or maybe you agree with the popular view - put forward by books, films and plays over several decades - that the battle really was nothing more than a futile waste of (British) life?

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• Message 2

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  Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009

  The Somme, in my opinion, was where the British Army learned how to fight a modern war. They started as Kitchener's volunteers, with little knowledge of the realities of modern weaponry, and ended it as a much more professional, thoughtful, better organised, and better led fighting force than before.
  
  The lesson was expensive, but then very few lessons are war are not.

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  Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009

  The ending of the Battle of the Ancre marked the ending of the final phase of the Somme battle.
  
  I have a personal sorrow regarding the Battle of the Somme because the younger brother of my maternal grandmother was killed by an exploding shell on 18 October 1916. Body never found. I should have grown up knowing my great-uncle Ted but he had sadly perished 28 years before my birth.
  

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009

  the real tragedy of the somme (IMHO) was
  
  it was the last british volunteer army - the REAL cream of a generation
  
  lads and pals and village battalions - whole communities wiped out in a single day
  
  an elite army sent into the grinder without any thought or imagination - normal over the top boys
  
  there was no reason for it - it was started because pressure needed to be put on the hun to relieve pressure from the french fronts - NOT because the somme was a strategic target
  
  it was launched against a part of the front that had been stable for a long time - ie they had dug deep and were in well prepared dugouts they had a long time to prepare
  
  everyone including the hun knew when and where it was going to happen - bank holidays being cancelled to allow the armaments workers to do extra work were noted by our foes
  
  a 3 day bombardment might have also given a clue
  
  german troops were always going to die in large numbers every time an offensive was launshed
  to where it was going to happen
  
  the sheer stupidity of this campaign beggars belief !!
  didnt really matter tho as it was again the underclass who sufferred - not the generals in the chateaux
  
  st

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 18th November 2009

  st
  
  and at the end of it all, the Germans were so drained, they had to give up a great chunk of their gains in Northern France and withdraw to shorter line.
  
  For all the appalling loss of life, the Somme was a strategic vistory for the Allies, recognised as such by the Germans.
  
  But, as Dr Sheffield has commented: "We (serious historians) have the facts but they have Blackadder."
  
  I have never understood the desire to deprive the dead of the proper recognition of the results of their sacrifice.
  
  LW

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  Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Thursday, 19th November 2009

  LongWeekend,
  
  You are, I believe, spot on in yr quotation of Dr Sheffield. The last series of Blackadder breathed new life into the old "lions led by donkeys" canard which persists in some quarters to this day.
  
  Haig was the commander who learnt most during the war on the western front, so that by 1918, he was able to hold the "Kaiser Offensive" and launch a highly successful counter-offensive that re-opened the front. Particularly in his early use of armour, Haig was far from the reactionary butcher that Blackadder and others sought to portray, not least for contemporary political reasons. If he had really been such a contemptible figure, the crowds would not have turned out in such numbers for his funeral.

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Thursday, 19th November 2009

  it was the last british volunteer army - the REAL cream of a generationΜύ
  
  Stalteriisok, I hope I'm not getting the wrong end of the stick but...Isn't that a bit of a leap to say those patriotic enough to fight were the cream? The corollary of your comment is that those who didn't fight were somehow less and that's doing a huge disservice to those who weren't allowed to join up. For instance munitions workers were banned from leaving their work to join up in 1915 and the army generally refused to take miners (those needed for tunnelling were directly selected from the mines). Under conscription your employer could appeal against your call up and prevent you going to war if a tribunal found your work was more useful.
  
  The idea that soldiers were the better part of the generation led to essential workers being snubbed or insulted in the street and was one reason why after WW2 that the Bevin Boys (conscripted soldiers sent down dangerous mines rather than to the front) received no official thanks, despite the mine woerk killing many of them and leaving most of the rest with long term permanently damaged health.
  
  there was no reason for it - it was started because pressure needed to be put on the hun to relieve pressure from the french fronts - NOT because the somme was a strategic targetΜύ
  
  Isn't that the strategic reason then? Whatever the Battle did to the British, it was defintely a strategic loss to the Germans in terms of men and essential supplies. It pinned down huge numbers of German troops and meant their offensive at Verdun failed. Looking at the overall position it has to be judged a success. No-one would consider Marlborough's assault on Blenheim village in isolation from the rest of the battle and claim it was a costly waste of men. So shouldn't we have to consider the Somme as one sector of the entire WW1 battleline?
  
  german troops were always going to die in large numbers every time an offensive was launshed to where it was going to happen
  Μύ
  
  So the Somme was just as good a place to launch the attack as anywhere?
  
  didnt really matter tho as it was again the underclass who sufferred - not the generals in the chateauxΜύ
  
  This is a bit of a myth. 78 of those generals managed to get themselves killed. Added to the fact that the "underclass" were officered by the sons/ brothers/ nephews/ friends of those generals and those officers died faster than the privates. I doubt they looked at the map and thought "who cares who dies, I've still got half a bottle of claret?" It was their families being torn apart too.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by toffee142 (U12031649) on Thursday, 19th November 2009

  Hi stalteriisok,
  The Somme was not originally planned to relieve pressure on the French at Verdun; it was originally devised by the French at the end of 1915 to be the main offensive for 1916, just as Haig became C-in-C of the BEF, and was intended to be a joint attack. However the German attack on Verdun in February 1916 prevented the French from taking their leading role in the Somme offensive, this passing to the BEF.

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