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Verification of aces' scores

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by clankylad (U1778100) on Sunday, 8th November 2009

  Looking at some of the alleged victory totals of WWII fighter pilots, I was wondering what sort of level of verification there is for these scores? For example, according to Wikipedia, 15 German pilots on the Eastern front claim over 200 victories. Can these claims be matched against actual Soviet losses? I must say that even given the allegedly poor training of some Soviet pilots and equipment I find that these claims stretch credibility.
  
  Also, do all air forces consider enemy aircraft destroyed on the ground as victories?

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• Message 2

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Sunday, 8th November 2009

  With a few exceptions most of the top scoring German Aces would have joined the Luftwaffe prior to 1942 when they would have had the time and fuel to train them to a very high degree, especially those who were members before the war started.
  
  There is also the issue of German pilot rotation, something that was virtually non existent in the latter war years, this meant that pilots flew hundreds of missions, e.g.
  
  Heinz Bar - 220 victories - over 1000 missions
  Gerd Barkhorn - 301 victories - 1100 missions
  Wilhelm Batz - 237 victories - 445 missions
  Ernst Borngen - 45 victories - 450 missions
  Adolf Galland - 104 victories - over 700 missions
  Erich Hartmann 352 vicories - over 1400 missions
  
  Another important factor in their scores is the aircraft they were flying, for large parts of the war German pilots flew aircraft that were at least the equal and in many cases were superior to the aircraft flown by their opponents.
  
  The German authorities were a lot stricter than the Allied nations when it came to verifying kills. Between 1939 & 1945 German fighters claimed 25,000 victories against the Western Allies, admitted Allied losses were in the region of 40,000. On the Eastern front about 45,000 claims were made, Soviet losses are accepted as being at least 75,000. So German claims were not exaggerated.

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• Message 3

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  Posted by clankylad (U1778100) on Sunday, 8th November 2009

  I still find it difficult to be convinced that some pilots managed to shoot down an average of one enemy aircraft for every other mission they flew.
  
  How were Luftwaffe authorities any more strict than those of another country in verifying claims, and has there been any serious attempt to verify the Luftwaffe claims against Soviet operational records?

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• Message 4

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  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 9th November 2009

  "I still find it difficult to be convinced that some pilots managed to shoot down an average of one enemy aircraft for every other mission they flew"
  
  But for at least a year most German pilots would have flown against totally, totally obsolete aircraft and with total air superiorty - the Sovs scrambled everything against them even transport aircraft against a flight of Me-109's as they had guns so the tally of flyers like Hartmann might include at least 50 non-fighter aircraft pressgange into service for air-to-air comabt.....but as we know any fool with a gun can kill you so it was still dangerous.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by clankylad (U1778100) on Monday, 9th November 2009

  GFR: "...for at least a year most German pilots would have flown against totally, totally obsolete aircraft and with total air superiorty - the Sovs scrambled everything against them even transport aircraft against a flight of Me-109's as they had guns so the tally of flyers like Hartmann might include at least 50 non-fighter aircraft..."
  
  But according to Wikipedia, Hartmann didn't actually join the battle until late in 1942 and many of the other big scorers also weren't 'in at the start' of the Eastern front campaign - I really do find it a bit much to believe (without any cross-checking with Soviet losses)that such substantial totals were achieved. Maybe the war situation just demanded heroes and there simply wasn't the desire to verify the legitimacy of their claims? Certainly things like this: "In October 1943, Hartmann claimed another 33 kills" from the Wikipedia article (which quotes supposedly authoritative sources) are a bit 'hmmmm...'?!

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 10th November 2009

  "Hartmann didn't actually join the battle until late in 1942 and many of the other big scorers also weren't 'in at the start' of the Eastern front campaign - I really do find it a bit much to believe (without any cross-checking with Soviet losses)that such substantial totals were achieved."
  
  Even in late-42 though the Sovs might have had more aircraft but were pilots well trained?
  
  Also if the Sovs had more and more aircraft then surely there were more and more to shoot down? Add to that it would be interesting to know what type of aircraft he shot down.....

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• Message 7

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Tuesday, 10th November 2009

  Several things have already been pointed out regarding German pilots but as you find things hard to believe let's look again.
  
  1. Germany was in the war for 6 years.
  
  2. Most of the top aces joined the Luftwaffe before the war or in it's very early stages.
  
  3. There was no rotation, you flew until incapable of doing so.
  
  4. German pilots very often were forced to fly multiple missions per day.
  
  5. They flew against equal/inferior aircraft and/or pilots for (large) parts of the war.
  
  6. To claim a kill in the Luftwaffe you had to have independant verification, either another pilot or ground forces etc, no half claims like in other airforces, basically no verification, no claim. As the war went on don't forget gun cameras came into use also.
  
  7. Aircraft destroyed on the ground didn't count towards a pilots 'kills'
  
  I would hazard a guess that there were a total of 35,000+ fighter pilots in the Luftwaffe as they lost 25,000 killed, wounded or MIA, given all of the above it isn't difficult to understand why some good/exceptional pilots would have high scores.
  
  
  I notice that you are only querying scores on the Eastern Front?
  
  You don't honestly believe that there was a differant scoring method for pilots based on what theatre they flew in do you?
  
  As I said earlier German claims on the Eastern Front were 45,000, accepted Soviet losses are 75,000, possibly as high as 90,000. The Soviets have admitted to 70,000 losses. Those figures equate roughly with Western Allied losses.
  
  As to 'Bubi' Hartmann, yes he didn't fly his first combat mission until October 1942, but he was tutored by some very experienced pilots and became an exceptional pilot himself.
  
  "Certainly things like this: "In October 1943, Hartmann claimed another 33 kills" from the Wikipedia article (which quotes supposedly authoritative sources) are a bit 'hmmmm...'?!"
  
  I don't know what sources Wikipaedia refers to but Hartmanns log book for that period survived the war in his possesion, excerpts were published in his biography "The Blond Knight of Germany" and it lists the victory no., sortie, date, time, aircraft type and location.
  
  If you need further proof of Hartmanns 352 kills then look no further than the charges laid against him by the Soviets during his trial,
  
  From the Soviet judge "Charge one. You participated in the illegal, brutal and unprovoked attack on the Soviet Union, and destroyed a great quantity of Soviet war material, including at least three hundred and forty five expensive Russian aircraft."
  
  

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• Message 8

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  Posted by clankylad (U1778100) on Tuesday, 10th November 2009

  Steelers708: I specifically cited the Eastern front because it's noticable that pilots who flew in the West claimed quite a lot less. Despite the rigour of the German verification system, the claims of Hans-Joachim Marseille who was the top scoring ace against Western pilots have been seriously disputed and indeed, don't tally with actual allied losses. Can the claims of Eastern front pilots be subjected to the same level of scrutiny against Soviet records?
  
  With regard to the Soviet court's charges against Hartmann, I don't think that counts as evidence to support his claims. If he'd claimed to shoot down 352 planes then that's what he'd be charged with. In their view it was a confession. I doubt they had access to Red Air Force statistics!
  
  I don't have time to go further right now (pub time!), but I will return to this. By the way, I don't doubt that Hartmann, Nowotny etc. were great pilots but I do think this is an area that is worth a closer look and I'm not trying to start an argument!

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• Message 9

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  Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Tuesday, 10th November 2009

  In recent years, Soviet historians have started to have their doubts about Hartmann's victory list, because they could not verify his claims against losses recorded in their archives. But it is hard to say how complete these archives are, and the problem is often compounded by errors in aircraft identification.
  
  In February 2005 Dimitri Khazanov published, in a French publication, an article in which he estimated that only about 80 of Hartmann's claims could be confirmed from Soviet records. Estimated, because apparently only a sample has been investigated. He made the reasonable point that in the last years of war, when the Luftwaffe was under heavy pressure everywhere, the accuracy of its claims verification was not as good as before.
  
  Such a downward revision of claims is, to put it mildly, controversial. The German historian Hans Ring replied -- in a different journal -- with a sharp attack on Khazanov's arguments and methodology, while admitting that an unintentional overestimate of claims was almost unavoidable and widespread. (Intentional inflation of claims was very rare, but not unknown.)
  
  I doubt that many real historians today would insist that Hartmann brought down 352 enemy aircraft. German claims verification procedures were fairly rigorous, because after all this was a military intelligence requirement, but the circumstances on the Eastern front were not of the type that encourages a leisurely verification. On the other hand, a reduction to 80 seems way to low and the evidence offered for that is not really convincing. The conservative estimate would be in the 150-250 range, allowing for normal overclaiming rates by experienced pilots in a "target-rich" environment.
  

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Wednesday, 11th November 2009

  Hartmann in approximately 1100 days flew an average of 1.5 missions every two days? And managed to shoot down an average 4 enemy aircraft on each mission? What about bad weather ... and didn't he ever go on leave? He must have been a very fit man! You must pardon our slight scepticism.
  Regards Spruggles.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Wednesday, 11th November 2009

  Spruggles,
  
  I think you've got your maths mixed up. It's no wonder you find his number of kills hard to believe, what fantasy book did you get those figures from?
  
  1100 days with 1.5 missions every 2 days is 825 missions.
  
  825 missions with 4 kills per mission is 3,300 kills.
  
  Hartmann flew his first combat mission on 14th October 1942 and his last on the 8th May 1945
  
  That's 943 days as a frontline fighter pilot. He flew 1404 missions in that time. That comes out at 1.49 missions per day average.
  
  His kill total is 352.
  
  1404(missions) divided by 352(kills) = 3.99 missions per kill.

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