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The Irish won the Empire

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by ballerShane (U8038744) on Tuesday, 3rd November 2009

  Hi. I was browsing through a few random history sites recently and I came across a phrase
  
  ''The Irish won the Empire, the Scots ran it, and the English lost it''
  
  Obviously this is an exaggeration, but is there any basis for a statement such as this?
  
  Just to add, I'm Irish, and I have little knowledge of the British Empire.
  
  I'm interested in hearing the opinions of more knowledgeable members than myself.

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• Message 2

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  Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  I thought the Empire was made great by us northerners then ruined by those southern lot. In 1890 Britain had the greatest Empire the world had ever seen Liverpool was first city of empire and more ships were registered in Liverpool than in all of rest of the world. Now we are run by a bunch of Scots down in London, and we are a second (Or even third) rate country. So the sooner we northerners get back to running the country the better. But the Irish had a lot to do with the building, and I must add reluctantly so did the Scots.

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  Thanks for the prejudiced John Prescott-type rant.
  
  Taking the blinkers off for a second, the end of the Empire had more to do with educational levels growing with the peoples of the Empire, two world wars, a change in society where imperialism was not considered ideal, and cheaper more-efficient competitive industries from abroad that out-fought British industry for business.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  ''The Irish won the Empire, the Scots ran it, and the English lost it''
  
  Obviously this is an exaggeration, but is there any basis for a statement such as this?Β 
  
  I think it's down to a misunderstanding of statistics. In terms of numbers the Irish and Scots formed a larger percentage of the army than expected from their percentages in the population. Similarly Scots working for the East India Company. But in each case in absolute numbers there were more English (which is to be expected as they formed the bulk of the population).
  
  It's often said that then Irish built Britain because large numbers worked as navvies. Yet the English formed the overwhelming majority of navvies.
  
  The one thing were there might be real truth is in terms of emmigrants. I think Niall Fergusson's "Empire" has some statistics on this which show that Canada was mostly settled by Scots and run by them.
  
  As for the English losing it. Most of the Empire was given away without a fight, and therefore reflected the will of Parliament (representing mostly English constituencies), so that could be true. Since most people think imperialism is bad, then kudos to those English voters.
  
  In reality though they were voting for more important policies affecting their home life rather than those affecting Empire.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  "...Since most people think imperialism is bad, then kudos to those English voters..."
  
  
  
  
  Yes, this part of it always makes me laugh too.
  
  We lost the empire because we became a democracy.
  
  If Scotland, or Ireland, want an empire of their own, they can have it. But they will both need a bigger army. Should Robert Mugabe actually be blaming Alex Salmond for his troubles ?
  
  The historical fact is that Britain formed an empire for a variety of reasons. The largest part of the populace had little say in it. The aristocracy gave the orders, and the rest of us did their bidding. If Scotland and Ireland want to go down in history as the imperialists lap dog, they are welcome.

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  Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  The English lost it?
  
  Or was it really a case of Britain becoming bankrupt after WWII, and not being able to afford an Empire any more? Or could it be that countries like India were demanding their independence, and Britain not being able to resist those demands any more?

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• Message 7

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  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  Shivfan,
  
  Yes, you are right.
  
  But really it is a mixture of things.
  
  Democracy in Europe, local independence movements. Also, the pressure from the US was present.
  
  The whole original post is based ona false premise. The irritating part is that it seems intended to make the English look stupid at any expense, even accidentally making the Irish and Scottish look like idiots. The whole thing is silly.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  The English lost it?
  
  Or was it really a case of Britain becoming bankrupt after WWII, and not being able to afford an Empire any more? Or could it be that countries like India were demanding their independence, and Britain not being able to resist those demands any more?Β 
  
  Shivfan, you're right. "Lost" really isn't an appropriate word. We still know where India is and it wasn't as though Britain woke up one morning and the Indians had just stopped returning the calls.
  
  The decision to give up Empire was based on a mixture of the points you make with some having more bearing on some politicains than other reasons.
  
  I'd add a couple extra reasons such as an increasing rejection of imperialism on the intellectual left, and a paternalistic (and racist) attitude that the "uncivilized" people of the Empire had now "grown up" and were capable of ruling themselves.
  
  WW2 in particular was a real wake up call to the fact that defending the Empire was only possible with the participation of the imperial subjects. Increasingly those subjects were being educated in British schools and universities which taught the belief in the old concept of British liberties. Those subjects rightly wondered why those liberties weren't being applied to their own countries and demanded independence. This was also an inherent contradiction in the British attitude towards Empire. The Victorians had started the shift towards a moral aspect of Empire "We're here to look after the locals and improve them and their country". As excuses for British presence in foreign lands died, it became less and less plausible to hold on to them, especially if Britain would have had to go to war to do so.

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• Message 9

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  ballerShane
  
  I used to enjoy observing to the more irritating sort of American that the Irish tragedy was that they had conquered two Empires, neither of them their own. The look on their faces when they realised who I meant by the second empire was usually worth it.
  
  That Irish soldiers, led by officers who were often Anglo-Irish or Scots, won the Empire cannot really be disputed. They constituted around 40% of the early C19th Army, and were even more in evidence in the unfashionable regiments that served in unfashionable places. When the East India Company's "European" regiments were absorbed into the British Army, they joined the Line as Irish regiments.
  
  As for running it, the ranks of the pro-consuls of Empire, and its prominent traders seem disproportionately Scots (and Ulstermen). there may have been more Englishmen involved overall, but the tone of Empire had a brogue to it.
  
  As for the English losing it, this is a dig at the effete, enervated Oxbridge-educated elite that dominated the public service post-WWI. I think it was the British collectively who lost it and while, as pointed out above, dismantling the Empire was no bad thing in the long run, we also failed to organise the nation properly.
  
  But, as "1066 and All That" points out, we are always triumphant IN THE END.

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• Message 10

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  Posted by ballerShane (U8038744) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  Thanks for the interesting replies.
  
  I would like to say that I meant no offence, I did not intend to portray any nationality as stupid. I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts on the phrase.
  
  To the poster who said that the Irish are welcome to the empire, I don't think you would find many takers in Ireland.
  
  LongWeekend, what was the response of the Americans to such an observation?

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• Message 11

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  Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Thursday, 5th November 2009

  I appreciate what you're saying, but to say that English 'lost' the Empire really does a disservice to the independence movements in the Empire, especially in India....
  
  It could be argued that Britain got wise, and gave up the Empire, before it was taken from them, as happened in Portugal's overseas territories. By taking this approach, at least Britain was able to secure some good trading relations with their former colonies, by forming a Commonwealth, which ensured that the transition to independence for its former colonies was relatively peaceful.
  
  <quote> As for the English losing it, this is a dig at the effete, enervated Oxbridge-educated elite that dominated the public service post-WWI. I think it was the British collectively who lost it and while, as pointed out above, dismantling the Empire was no bad thing in the long run, we also failed to organise the nation properly.

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• Message 12

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  Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Friday, 6th November 2009

  This is an interesting thread.
  
  Of course in India, two of the most important and successful imperial conquerers were Irish: the future Duke of Wellington, who broke the Mahratta Confedaracy in the early C19th and Sir Hugh Gough who defeated the Sikhs in the 1840s (albeit due to the quality of his troops, rather than his own tactics, which consisted simply of frontal assaults into the teeth of the powerful Sikh artillery)

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• Message 13

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 6th November 2009

  Sixtus
  
  Arthur Wellesley thought of himself as Anglo-Irish, at best, with heavy emphasis on the "Anglo".
  
  When teased about his Irishness, he produced the famous bon mot:
  
  "Just because one is born in a stable, it does not make one a horse."
  
  It would probably be more accurate to think of his family as being one of those English families that specialised in government service and benefited from the Ascendancy.
  
  The Peer was very appreciative of his Irish soldiers, though
  
  LW

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• Message 14

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  Posted by Sixtus Beckmesser (U9635927) on Monday, 9th November 2009

  Agreed, LongWeekend,
  
  Most of the "Irish" establishment figures at the time were distinctly "Anglo-Irish" and the Irish Peerage was predominantly so. Think also of Palmerston and the composer MW Balfe.
  
  Hugh Gough, on the other hand was wholly Irish and was famous for his hearty Irish cursing. Affectionately known as "Paddy Gough" in the army, he was far more beloved by his men than by his fellow officers or the Governor General, Lord Hardinge.
  
  

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• Message 15

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  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Monday, 9th November 2009

  BallerShane, "...I would like to say that I meant no offence..."
  
  
  I don't think any one took offence at your question. It is rather what prompted the question. The problem arises from what is, essentially, a non-analytic statment based on an attempt to make the English look silly.

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