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Red Baron

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by pc1973 (U13716600) on Tuesday, 20th October 2009

  Having wasted two hours of my life over the weekend watching this I thought I would ask some questions regarding some actual things raised in the movie.
  
  I know it's only a film but I was hoping for a gritty sort of Drama along the lines of 'Downfall' what it is akin to a kids 'Biggles' movie (it's even in English with public school boy accents).
  
  Anyway I know this isn't a film review board so here goes.
  
  1. The Canadian Pilot Capt Roy Brown who is credited with shooting down the Baron. Did the Baron shoot him down a year previous?
  2. Is there any record of German Pilots replacing the engines in there Fockre's with Bentley Engines? I always thought the Fockre was regarded as the best plane of the War.
  
  I took the above as complete rubbish when watching but thought I would clarify with the people on this board. If these things have been invented for the movie as I suspect it's a real shame as this is one man's story you would have thought would have required no spicing up.
  
  Regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 20th October 2009

  The Fokker Dr 1 (triplane) was excellent when it first came out but was sorely outclassed by 1917-1918.
  
  A case of German aviation not keeping pace with improvements in their field - repeated by the Bf/Me 109 in WW2.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 20th October 2009

  This bio of Roy brown does not mention him being shot down at all. It does mention his accidental crash, so I think they would have mentioned that, at least in passing.
  
  
  
  
  
  "...I always thought the Fockre was regarded as the best plane of the War..."
  
  
  Some words re-pay careful spelling. It is 'Fokker'.
  
  History being full of surprises, I found this site that refers to captured French engines, (110hp Le Rhone type) being fitted to the DR1. It could be that the film makers were aware of this and switched the reference to Bentley as it is a better known, more glamorous brand. Both sides would do whatever it took to improve performance, even by a few miles an hour.
  
  
  
  
  As for which aircraft was best, there was a continual leapfrogging of design standards. The DR1 was probably best for a while, but was overtaken by later types.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by cthulhu1 (U13911150) on Tuesday, 20th October 2009

  Certainly, Roy Brown did not meet the Baron as portrayed in the film and of course there has been a long dispute about who shot von R.down. Brown, on the surface has a flimsy case but, its history discuss....
  
  Boelcke, was the father of squadron tactics and was a mentor and hero of the aspiring ace, but I cannot find a reference to him switching engines, although as pointed out there were some examples.
  
  Other errors was the apparent age of Werner Voss who was a young man, not the 40+ look of the actor.
  
  The Dr1 was the best of its time, but many germans were weaned on the albatross 2. Later in the war the Fokker dr7, was at least imo the best but the Spad 13 was not too shoddy either.
  
  I never expected a gritty film, but this was a well made attempt to show that these were just patriotic young men, who had a sort of chivalry. It was refreshing to see the Germans with a human face for a change. Better than Flyboys (not too hard) but not as good as the silent classic Wings.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by VF (U5759986) on Tuesday, 20th October 2009

  Wasnt there a programme not so long ago (?Timewatch?) which claimed that the Baron may have actually been brought down by AA fire ??

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Tuesday, 20th October 2009

  Hello,
  Was it not established some years ago that Richthofen was indeed brought down by anti-aircraft fire from the Allied forward trenches?
  On the matter of Dr 1's using The Bentley rotary engine I very much doubt it although several Tripe's were fitted experimentally with Allied rotary engines for testing purposes. The real problem for the Germans was the lack of supply of a suitable fine oil for the rotary engine bearings which is the reason why they concentrated instead on the in-line engine.
  Regards Spuggles.
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 21st October 2009

  I don't think it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was ground fire that brought down von Richthofen, but if I had to put a fiver on it, that is where I would put my money.
  
  The problem is, I believe, that the aircraft and the ground gunners all used the same calibre bullet, so any bullets recovered, or the wound itself, would be indistinguishable. Everything else has to be built on a lot of supposition with regards to angles of attack, or the position of the pilot. These can all change very quickly in a dogfight.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Wednesday, 21st October 2009

  The German Oberursel rotary engines were the result of a pre-war license deal, that allowed Oberursel to built Gnome and Le Rhone engines. The German copies were interchangeable enough with their Allied equivalents. A Bentley BR.1 might also fit -- a BR.2 not.
  
  The problem the Germans and Austrians had with their rotaries was their lack of a supply of Castor oil, as imports from the tropic regions were cut off by the Allied blockade. In a rotary, a mix of air, fuel, and oil was injected into the carter through the stationary crankshaft, and this demanded an oil that would not dissolve in the fuel. The German "ersatz" lubricant was not as good as castor oil.
  
  

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by farmersboy (U5592874) on Tuesday, 3rd November 2009

  As an aside on the castor oil, the pilots ingested an amount of this while flying, as it tended to leak from the engines. This intake of oil led to the pilots needing to learn good bowel control, as cator oil is an excellent laxative!

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Tuesday, 3rd November 2009

  I don't think it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was ground fire that brought down von Richthofen, but if I had to put a fiver on it, that is where I would put my money.
  
  The problem is, I believe, that the aircraft and the ground gunners all used the same calibre bullet, so any bullets recovered, or the wound itself, would be indistinguishable. Everything else has to be built on a lot of supposition with regards to angles of attack, or the position of the pilot. These can all change very quickly in a dogfight.Β 
  
  Have you come across "The Red Baron's Last Flight", by Norman Franks and Alan Bennett? It sifts through all the eyewitness evidence and considers the topography, pathology, ballistics, etc. to come up with the conclusion that Richthofen was indeed killed by ground fire. I suppose you can never have absolute proof (and you're right, everyone was firing .303 bullets at him) but the book comes pretty close.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  I have not read that book, but I have seen the case presented elsewhere.
  
  I just think there are too many indeterminate points to be sure.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009

  Re message 9,
  Flying regular patrols at 10,000 feet and even 17,000 feet without oxygen. Having no parachutes ... wrapped in fur coats and fugg boots ... having your face covered in whale grease, having to face the enemy in sustained combat and ingesting Castor oil(rotary engined aircraft only)... what was that you said about controlling the bowel?
  Regards Spruggles.

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