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1919 Location of British on the Rhine?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Southernwood57 (U14130945) on Tuesday, 8th September 2009

  Between the Armistice of November 1918 and the signing of the final treaty in June 1919, were there any British Troops stationed in Germany?
  
  If so, can anyone tell me who and where? I'm particularly interested in the Rhine area.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Wednesday, 9th September 2009

  Mostly in Koln I beleive.
  
  Try this -

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Wednesday, 9th September 2009

  No Allied troops crossed into Germany after the Armistice came into force on 11 November 1918 (although an invasion would have taken place had Germany not agreed to the Armistice terms). Under the terms of the Versailles Treaty however irt was agreed that Allied troops (these were solely British and French as the US failed to ratify the Versailles Treaty) should garrison the Rhineland i.e. the left bank of the Rhine (going downriver) within German territory for twenty years. However as a result of the Locarno Treaty of 1925 and other agreements this occupation was ended in 1930.
  
  Germany was to continue to be responsible for this area administratively and politically. The exception was the Saar area which was administered by the League of Nations and only reunited with the Reich after a referendum in 1935 (ironically perhaps the only genuine free and fair election Germans participated in during the Third Reich). The Saar was similarly detached after WWII and only reunited with the Federal Republic (also after a referendum) in 1955.
  
  Germany agreed to maintain the Rhineland as a demilitarised area after Allied troops left. However this agreement was unilaterally broken when German troops reoccupied the Rhineland in March 1936 with Hitler citing the Franco-Soviet Pact of the previous year as an excuse (he also used it to denounce Versailles generally and introduce conscription).
  
  Additionally French troops crossed the Rhine in May 1923 to occupy the Ruhr industrial area after Germany had defaulted on her reparations payments and the French decided to seize payment in kind. Britain however disapproved of this action and the American government offered to mediate the dispute which led to the withdrawl of French troops by November, a rescheduling of reparations payments negotiated by the US financier and politician, Charles Dawes, and a thawing of relationships between the former Allied Powers and Germany resulting in the Treaty of Locarno in 1925 in which Germany recognised her boundaries and was admitted to the League of Nations (as well as the term of occupation of the Rhineland being shortened).
  
  There was always considerable friction between the Allied troops and the German civil powers as outlined in the memoirs of Konrad Adenauer who was Mayor of Cologne from 1917 to 1933 although they lacked the sweeping powers they were to hold in their occupation of the whole of Germany from 1945-9 and their departure in 1930 was seen as long overdue.
  
  This occupation was probably the reason why Hitler's remilitarisation six years later was so heartily welcomed by the German people (particularly those in the Rhineland) and seen as defensive in nature and not provocative or providing a casus belli. It was probably also why, apart from lacking the capability, the Allies refused to act.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Wednesday, 9th September 2009

  After leave in England, my grandfather rejoined his unit (51st Battalion, Machine Gun Corps) at Duren at the end of March 1919, and transferred in June to 2nd Battalion MGC at Langenfeld. Both are in North Rhine-Westphalia.

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  Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Wednesday, 9th September 2009

  Yes. I'm probably mistaken. Evacuation of the west bank of the Rhine by German troops was one of the conditions of the Armistice so presumably Allied troops (amongst whom was your grandfather) immediately filled the gap. However the occupation was legitimised by Versailles which determined its length (albeit later altered). I think I'm right (dangerous assertion) in stating that Wilson refused to allow US troops to occupy German territory, however.
  
  

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• Message 6

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  Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Wednesday, 9th September 2009

  In accordance with the 11 Nov armistice agreement, British, French and U.S. forces moved into the German Rhineland on 1 December 1918.
  
  On 9 December 1918 various parts of the German Rhineland were occupied. The British establish themselves at Cologne; the French at Mainz, and the U.S. at Koblenz.

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  Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Wednesday, 9th September 2009

  Ok. Wrong on that too. US troops must have been withdrawn when the Senate failed to ratify Versailles.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by Southernwood57 (U14130945) on Wednesday, 9th September 2009

  I'd like to reply to all but it seems the only choice I have is to reply to this one! Whatever, I'd like to thank all for their input.
  
  At a distance of 141Kms (80 miles), Koln seems too far away. Koblenz at 15 miles seems more likely but this I understand was an American base.
  
  Anyway, I still have to read all the information sent so there may be something I've missed!
  
  Allan D, thanks for your input and you've got guts to try three times! You've probably just had a bad day - I get eight days like that every week! Thanks again, my friend!
  
  Oh, finally, it is my father, not my grandfather, who fought in the first world war - my grandfather was born two years after the end of the American Civil War - honest! We're a fairly long lived family (well, I hope so, anyway!)
  
  My father was with the Royal Engineers (3rd Division Signals) and, I believe, a Despatch Rider. I'm trying to discover where he was in January 1919.

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• Message 9

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  Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Thursday, 10th September 2009

  Allan D,
  
  US troops must have been withdrawn when the Senate failed to ratify Versailles.Β 
  
  No, they were there until 1921 when the Knox-Porter Resolution was signed.
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 10

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  Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Thursday, 10th September 2009

  Yes. I'm probably mistaken. Evacuation of the west bank of the Rhine by German troops was one of the conditions of the Armistice so presumably Allied troops (amongst whom was your grandfather) immediately filled the gap. However the occupation was legitimised by Versailles which determined its length (albeit later altered). I think I'm right (dangerous assertion) in stating that Wilson refused to allow US troops to occupy German territory, however.Β 
  
  Allan,
  
  Sorry, my posting comes over as a rather terse response to yours - that wasn't my intention, I was just answering Southernwood's. For interest, my grandfather was stationed in Belgium up until January 1919, at least - I'm working from some notes he made when he was trying to claim a pension, and he was promoted lance corporal in the orderly room at Godarville some time that month. I get the impression his unit moved to the Rhineland between his departure on leave (17 March) and his return at the end of the month.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by geordiejarrovian (U14132427) on Sunday, 13th September 2009

  Hello all, Just a note to say that my grandfather served in the Duke of Wellingtons West Riding Regiment and then then the Machine Gun Corps. I have photo of him, with the guard turned out, at their barracks in Cologne in 1919.
  regards
  Geordie

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• Message 12

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  Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Sunday, 13th September 2009

  Quite right, WC, the extent of my ignorance grows with every passing day but as your excellent link on the US Third Army points out, by rejecting Versailles, which formally ended WWI, the US technically were still at war with Germany and so had to sign a separate peace which was done in 1921. US troops were then brought home as the US was not bound by the occupation provisions of Versailles.

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