Wars and Conflicts permalink
Warsaw 65 years ago!
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Message 1.
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Tomorrow, on the 1st of August, it is 65 years ago the people of Warsaw stood up against the German occupation of its capital and Poland. Five years of murder, robbery and persecution had tired the Polish people and the uprising was the result of this aggression from the German side.
The uprising was very well planned and surprised the Germans. The Poles had no chance but showed the whole of Europe that it was possible to stand up against the criminal German regim and its allies. The uprising was the largest resistens during the whole war and we will remember these heroes for ever.
Later it was possible to kick out these enemy of Europe out of the country and hopeful these force never will show up in the free and democratic Europe. -
Message 2
Posted by wiseraphael (U9522166) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Of course it wsn't too long before that that the Jews of The Warsaw Ghetto also rose up, with nothing but homemade weapons and what they could steal from the Germans. They held out somehow for some weeks....with as I recollect no help from the rest of the city, or the underground.
There was also huge collusion with the Germans with the rounding up of the Jews (and others), the setting up of the Ghetto and the stealing of Jewish owned properties.
Sure, the Poles fought bravely against the Nazis....eventually...but in many other respects they weren't much better. -
Message 3
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Friday, 31st July 2009
My grandfather was caught by the Germans because he helped the Jews in thier uprising in April 1943, many weapons came from the outside underground movement in Warsaw to help the Jews. But of course, your fabrications of Polish history is allways the same.
Many of my grandfathers friends spent time at Aleja Szucha and later in Auschwitz and Matthausen. Some Jews helped the underground movement in the Warsaw Uprising one year later.
It is popular to speak of that Poles helped the Nazis, without any proof of this, but never how some Jews helped the Nazis, eg Judische Rat in the ghetto. Poland was the ONLY country of the occupied Europe where there was no goverment of Quislings. -
Message 4
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Mr_Gregor,
My grandfather was caught by the Germans because he helped the Jews in thier uprising in April 1943, many weapons came from the outside underground movement in Warsaw to help the Jews.
When I´ve read or better heard about the uprising of the Warsaw Jews in 1943, I had the same thing noticed as wiseraphael has written. What is also an historical fact and you pointed out, came very much later in newer documentaries.
It is popular to speak of that Poles helped the Nazis, without any proof of this, but never how some Jews helped the Nazis, eg Judische Rat in the ghetto.
That´s the way it is, in the same manner like some people still refer to Germans as if all of them still would be "Nazis". Either some people don´t know or even worse won´t accept that there always has been people who helped and some who resisted the occupation forces. For the "Jüdische Rat" in the Ghettos, you might know well that they has been forced by the Germans to "help" them and this would be an extra issue to dicuss, even more difficult than to discuss the Warsaw uprising in 1944.
It is also unfortunately that the matter about forced Polish civilians to work in the German Industry for its war efforts finds no place for debate as well as about the stolen Polish children, taken by the Germans from their Polish families to raise them in Educations Camps because they had blue eyes and blond hair. These are both special topics and hasn´t been discussed or better researched by historians.
Poland was the ONLY country of the occupied Europe where there was no goverment of Quislings.
Right, the authoritarian regime in Polend has been vanished after the Polish Army has surrendered to the Germans and from then to 1945 there has been no Polish Government in Poland, just those in Exile in London. The last one has played an special role according the order from Stalin, to stop in the border of the Warsaw city, during the uprising has going on and to do not help the Polish fighting the Germans.
I wonder why the refused help from the Red Army is so less mentioned when it comes to discussions about the Warsaw uprising in 1944. The Sovjets has been "Eye-Witnesses" in that event and didn´t move until the Polish had surrendered. The Exile Government was not comfortable for the plans of Stalin, to establish in Poland an Communist Government, because those in Exile has been more democrats and claimed for themselves to establish an new Polish Government, after Poland has been freed from the Germans.
We could discuss these matters to, if you like, because there are some links between the above said and the reason for the refusal of the Red Army by Stalins order connected to the Warsaw uprising 1944.
In general I would say, that there are everywhere good and bad people, and to compare the Jewish uprising in Warsaw in 1943 with the Polish Resistance uprising in 1944 isn´t that easy, because the circumsdances has been very different from one year to the other. If the Polish Resistance had fought along the Jewish side, they had risked to be decovered and eleminated. So the help from them with arms and ammunition was the least what they had could do, although when some will complaine that the Jews had to pay for that, but everything has it´s price. I wouldn´t wonder if some member of the Polish Resistance has lost his life by the undertaking to get arms and ammunitions in any different and difficult way.
Regards
Thomas -
Message 5
Posted by Charles Babbage (U2239092) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Re the Ghetto uprising I am interested in the following book
Though it will be some time before I get a chance to read it let alone be able to comment on it.
Mr Gregor, are you attending any commeration events for the 1944 uprising? I assume there will be some sort of official memorial event for this. -
Message 6
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Mr Thomas!
I will not comment on your two first remarks, but the third is very intressting; why did the Poles did not take help from the Russians?
Well, first, what help? They did not help the Polish resistence. When the Russians advanced into Poland, they started to broadcast over their radio; "We are close, rise against the fascist enemy!" When they were close to the Vistula river they continued to broadcast the same message. Now, there are two lines in the Polish resistance, they who wanted help of the Russians and they who wanted to make the uprising of themselves and welcome the Red Army as guests in their own house. And now Stalin made his decision, not to help the Poles. And why? Even the communists in Warsaw took part in the uprising, but they were independent of Moscow and Stalin knew this, so it was important for Stalin that all resistens against the Red Army was gone when they entered the town. That is why Red Army made halt at the shore of the Vistula River and just could watch the Polish AK-army loose the war against the Nazis.
Later the Red Army arrested members of the AK and put up camps in Rembertów and many other places. Many leaders were executed in Moscow, shot in the woods in Mazury and sent to Siberia.
Mr Thomas! We know all about this, and in Poland it is very known. -
Message 7
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Mr Charles Babbage!
Yes, I will attend the celebrations tomorow in Warsaw, first at Pilsudski Place and later at the monument at Bronifraterska Street.
It is a very important moment in Warsaw tomorrow, not many members of the uprising are alive today. -
Message 8
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Mr_Gregor,
Thanks for your reply.
Mr Thomas! We know all about this, and in Poland it is very known.
I´ve no doubt about that, but for me as a German, that historical background came in Germany to public on historical documentaries, just from the mid of the 1990s onwards. There was not so much knowledge about Polish History in (West)Germany until the iron curtain has fallen. For the matters about the Red Army and their role in the Warsaw uprising, I assume that this part of history has been treaten in different ways during the time of the Communists in Poland, will say more not on the "official" history, because of the "Polish-Sovjet-Friendship". Not to offend anybody, but as you may know, such stereotypes of "Friendships" with the USSR had more to do with propaganda, than with "real friendship".
Poland has been the victim for three diversions in its history. Germany and Russia has played the mainpowers in that tragical events, so I can understand (at least I´ve tried to) their sensibility towards both neighbours.
By the way, there will be shown also an compilation about the Warsaw uprising on the German TV-Channel Phoenix on Sunday for three hours. Either I will watch it or record it for later.
I got me informations about the Warsaw uprising 1944 from such documentaries and you has explained the things better in your post than I remembered the details you mentioned. Thank you for that, because it is the advantage here, when people from other countries bring in their contributions when topics related to their home country are discussed here. They might have an better knowledge about the history of their own country and can point out important matters, which others may not know.
In that way, your contributions might help to bring up a more different picture about Polish History and its people to these boards. -
Message 9
Posted by wiseraphael (U9522166) on Friday, 31st July 2009
"But of course, your fabrications of Polish history is allways the same."
Eh?? -
Message 10
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Friday, 31st July 2009
"Eh?" Well, yes!
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Message 11
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Mr Thomas!
Thank you so very much for the info. I can see Phoenix TV, so I will watch this programme with great interrest. Once again, thanks! -
Message 12
Posted by wiseraphael (U9522166) on Friday, 31st July 2009
""Eh?" Well, yes!"
This is the first time I've posted on this board for months. what on earth are you talking about?
Couldn't be a guilty conscience could it?
After all, we both know the record of Polish anti-semitism through the centuries don't we! -
Message 13
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Friday, 31st July 2009
Guilty conscience? What do you know about this things? Tell me? From an armchair infront of a TV-set?
I do not want to be rude, but you know nothing about the war in Poland, NOTHING!
And the Jews lived in Poland for centuries because other countries kicked them out, England, Spain, Germany and in Sweden Jewish faith was forbidden untill 1778. And you are talking about Poland? Jews lived in Poland because compared with other European contries, it was a safe-haven.
Besides, for your knowledge, we had a common enemy, a new thing for you.
Don´t bother to answer this! -
Message 14
Posted by wiseraphael (U9522166) on Friday, 31st July 2009
"Guilty conscience? What do you know about this things? Tell me? From an armchair infront of a TV-set?
I do not want to be rude, but you know nothing about the war in Poland, NOTHING!
And the Jews lived in Poland for centuries because other countries kicked them out, England, Spain, Germany and in Sweden Jewish faith was forbidden untill 1778. And you are talking about Poland? Jews lived in Poland because compared with other European contries, it was a safe-haven.
Besides, for your knowledge, we had a common enemy, a new thing for you.
Don´t bother to answer this!"
I'm afraid I'm going to answer it.
I lost seven uncles and aunts, their spouses and their children to the Nazis in Poland.
I possibly know more about it than you.
My father who had come here in the 20s told me about the conditions. That is why he and many others emigrated to the West. Don't make out that the Jews in Poland were anything but tolerated.
If you wanted to be a lawyer, a civil servant, a soldier, a university lecturer it was well nigh impossible if you were Jewish.
There were regular anti-jewish riots organised by the Church and anti-semitism was a way of life.
I'm afraid I have barely more sympathy for the Poles than I have for the Germans.
The poles only rose up against the Germans in 1944 because they thought the Russians would cross and help them. They gave no help to the Ghetto uprising. -
Message 15
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 31st July 2009
History is never simple.
Charles Babbage (5) and Thomas B (8) seem still able to absorb its complexity.
There were many 'brands' of Polish resistance and many forms of sympathetic or passive connivance with the Nazi regime.
There were leftist, pro-Stalinist elements (ZOB might belong here) and Jewish, ex-Polish Army elements, such as ZZW, as well as non-Jewish Polish Resistance.
Sometimes these movements co-operated, at other times they were at odds with one another.
In some Ghettos upper-class Jewish 'councils' actually provided the Germans with the weekly deportation numbers the latter demanded (at a time when movement from the Ghetto might reasonably be considered either dangerous or deadly).
Poland (once was, and) perhaps is still, famous for its anti-semitism, but London or San Francisco were probably not much better in 1940. The first serious study of anti-semitism was conducted by emigre Frankfurt Jews in California, just after WW2, remember. (See T. Adorno, "The Authoritarian Personality", 1954)
So, in summary, upper class conservative Jews struggled both with upper class secular Jews and with proletarian left-radical Jews in the Ghetto.
Outside the Ghetto, Jewish junior officers, formerly of the Polish Army, struggled with non-Jewish ex-Polish Army Anti-Semites.
In the later uprising, Polish pro-Stalinists bided their time whilst nationalist Poles fought the Germans, and were (mostly) overwhelmed. (see the films "Canal" and "Ashes and Diamonds")
Stalin was happy for his potential enemies in Poland to wipe each other out so that he could clean-up cheaply.
If friends of Poland had to decide during which dates Poland was truly independent, one might need to go back a long way? -
Message 16
Posted by Mr_Gregor (U5298579) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
They gave no help to the Ghetto uprising.
As I told you before, many Poles helped Jews in the ghetto of Warsaw and other ghettos, but it is common to speak bad about Poles. My grandfather, Józef Niedzialkowski, and his friends spent one and a half year year in German concentrationcamps for helping the Jews. 1000:s of Poles were helping Jews during the war, but this is not known in west. Everyone should wonder why?
I started this discussion, not to speak about the Jewish situation, but to remember all the heroes of the Warsaw Uprising of the 1st of August 1944. The largest resistens against the Nazi-German occupation. But it became a shit-throwing on Poles instead. Too bad the Poles gave their lives for so many contries if they are seen only as anti-semitics. Well, now they are beaten up in Britain when the Britts do not have Indians or Africans as low-paid workers.
On the other hand, I understand you, I feel now like you feel when you are confronted with semi-historians like Irwing and his gang. Deniers are everywhere, mostly where there is a lack of history.
"Speak about history, the dead will answer you with silence!" -
Message 17
Posted by nastychestycough (U13796779) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
I'm glad that this discussion has been started
My wife is part Polish and consequently I have been very interested in Poland for the last few years and read quite a lot of history books ( am even started to learn Polish- very challenging, very enjoyable!)
Conscious of the upcoming anniversary I recently read Warsaw '44, this is I think the definitive history of the Warsaw uprising. It is a thorough history, does not shirk from truths , palatable or otherwise.
Firstly it points out that much of the general public confuses the Ghetto uprising and the 1944 uprisisng, and are hard pressed to differentiate between the two. ( I have recently finshed the Novel 'Mila 18' and on my edition the blurb on the back describes the ghetto uprising as occuring between August-October 1944!)
One thing that surprised me was the fact that a significant minority of Warsovians were AGAINST the rising, they saw it as a futile, potentially disastrous attempt to broker in a goverment independent of Moscow and correctly predicted the horrendous outcome.
As for the allegations of Polish anti-semitism, I have wrestled with this for some time and would appreciate if any other posters could recommend a good objective history.
I have read that through the late middle ages onwards Poland was one of the most tolerant of European societies towards the Jews. I have read that in Israel the Polish nation has been officially recognised by the Israeli government as 'righteous'. I have certainly read many reports that the home army helped the Jews as much as it could. We have to remember that for Polish 'untermenschen' to help a Jew meant he was risking immediate execution for him and his family, yet if you read martin Gilberts 'The Righteous ' you will find many, many examples of heroism.
Conversely, it is known that the Polish autorities in the late 1930s were exploring the Madagascar option- ie repatriation of the Jews to Madagascar.
I am digressing, but I would suggest that on this anniversary, posters buy or borrow a copy of Warsaw 44. -
Message 18
Posted by Charles Babbage (U2239092) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
<QUOTE/>As for the allegations of Polish anti-semitism, I have wrestled with this for some time and would appreciate if any other posters could recommend a good objective history</QUOTE><BR /><BR />Could try this book<BR /><BR />www.secretcitybook.com<BR /><BR />Not about “polish anti-semitism” per se but talks extensively about it – even mentions the odd Polish atrocity. However Paulsson puts it into perspective as a factor in the holocaust. An example of his writing is here<BR /><BR /><LINK href="http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/special_reports/?content_id=5962">http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/special_reports/?content_id=5962</LINK><BR /><BR /><QUOTE/>One thing that surprised me was the fact that a significant minority of Warsovians were AGAINST the rising</QUOTE><BR /><BR />And it is still a hot topic of debate amongst Polish historians today apparently.<BR /><BR />However, Britain and the US knew of Polish plans for an uprising well before 1 August. Neither advised against it. Moscow radio was also calling on the Poles to rise up. Whilst the result could scarcely have been worse, not rising would have brought about it’s own problems.<BR />
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Message 19
Posted by Charles Babbage (U2239092) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
Maybe this link will work
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Message 20
Posted by Laura988 (U14088665) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
Someone here mentioned that Poles gave no help to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising .... please bear in mind that in Nazi-occupied Poland all family members were punished by death for concealing Jews or providing any help to them. And then ask yourself: would you be ready to risk your own life and life of your children just to help a Pole?????
If you talk about Polish antisemitism please do not forget that among Righteous among the Nations Poles are the most numerous despite harsh circumstances mentioned above. Nazi occupation in Poland was not the same as in Holland or France, all the Slavic nations were next to go to gas chambers and those helping the Jews were risking much more than anywhere else in Europe...
Plus, this was supposed to be a discussion about Warsaw Uprising, not about Ghetto Uprising. Poles also suffered during WWII, fact which often seems to be forgotten. And today we should honour those 200 000 citizens of Warsaw who lost their lives during Warsaw Uprising.
Chwa³a Bohaterom!!!! -
Message 21
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
Britain and the US knew of Polish plans for an uprising well before 1 August. Neither advised against it. Moscow radio was also calling on the Poles to rise up. Whilst the result could scarcely have been worse, not rising would have brought about it’s own problems.
This seems to be key.
Does anyone know just how much the UK, the US and the Soviet Union knew about the planned uprising and (moreover) how much imput they had given to its preparation? It seems inconceivable that less than 2 months after D-Day and in the height a summer no serious consideration was given to the strategic implications of which such a major rising would have in terms of the overall Allied war effort. They must have been some kind of pre-agreed co-ordination with the Polish 鶹Լ Army.
Whether or not they should, perhaps, have kept their powder dry and waited until after the Germans had evacuated Warsaw before revealing themselves is a major question. -
Message 22
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
Someone here mentioned that Poles gave no help to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising .... please bear in mind that in Nazi-occupied Poland all family members were punished by death for concealing Jews or providing any help to them. And then ask yourself: would you be ready to risk your own life and life of your children just to help a Pole????? There was good, bad and ugly throughout Europe, and East Europe in particular. There were incredibly brave people who risked their lives to save their vulnerable neighbors. There were people who saw the opportunity to loot their vulnerable neighbors. There was a lot of well justified fear and resentment toward Communists, and there were people who were really let to believe that all Jews were Communists, because quite a few prominent Bolsheviks had Jewish ancestry. Unscrupulous Polish politicians would not invoke the names of Dzerzhinsky or Tukhachevsky, just like unscrupulous Russian politicians do not like to remember Bukharin, Rykov and Yezhov, just like unscrupulous Ukrainian politicians do not like to mention Khruschev, Brezhnev and Chernenko. Everybody talked about Trotsky, Sverdlov and Zinovyev, though. Perephrasing that rabbi, Trotsky made the revolution, but Bronsteins paid the price.
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Message 23
Posted by Laura988 (U14088665) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
There was good, bad and ugly throughout Europe, and East Europe in particular.
Yes, I agree. Then why mainly Polish anti-semitism is being mentioned all the time??? Why not French antisemitism (e.g. the role of Vichy government - were ordinary French people saving Jews from deportations?????). Or Romanian antisemitism (massacres of Jews after 1940) or Latvian or Ukrainian???? Mrs Irena Sendler who saved more Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto than Oskar Schindler remains almost unknown in the Western world... perhaps on another occasion we should discuss the phenomenon of Jewish anti-polonism....
Anyway, as I said, we should skip this jewish issue for now. back to the Warsaw Uprising - I've read an interesting discussion on the Internet: what would have happened if the Warsaw uprising hadn't broken up?
- Stalin would have advanced more quickly and take over whole German territory, i.e. post-war Europe would have had a completely different shape
- Poland would have been incorporated into the Soviet Union and become 17th republic. What do you think? -
Message 24
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
Laura Anyway, as I said, we should skip this jewish issue for now. back to the Warsaw Uprising - I've read an interesting discussion on the Internet: what would have happened if the Warsaw uprising hadn't broken up?
- Stalin would have advanced more quickly and take over whole German territory, i.e. post-war Europe would have had a completely different shape
- Poland would have been incorporated into the Soviet Union and become 17th republic. What do you think? As far as I remember, Rokossovsky's 47th and 70th armies were on standby on Stalin's orders waiting for the Warsaw fighters to be wiped out. -
Message 25
Posted by nastychestycough (U13796779) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
Thank you for signposting me to 'Secret City'- I will defiitely try and get hold of it.
Ther is some evidence that the Germans had achieved a break-through during a minor counter attack, so Rokossovsky felt it prudent just to hold his bridgeheads on the Vistula. Whether this fitted in with Stalins strategy is a moot question.
There is an account of a Polish soldier trying to appeal to Rokossovskys heritage whilst trying to persusde him to act. Rokossovsky is reorted to have angrily rebuffed him with - "We will have no 'Pans' here!( In this context, a polite form of Polish social deference to a superior. )- evidently Rokossovsky did not cherish his own Polish background (or else he was frightened to acknowledge it, given what Stalin had put him through, one can hardly blame him ) -
Message 26
Posted by Laura988 (U14088665) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
Exactly. The Red Army stopped on the right bank of the Vistula river and waited there until the uprising fell after 63 days (in order to help Polish fighters they only had to cross the river). The city itself was liberated on January 17th 1945. This means that moving to the west was siginificantly delayed. Otherwise could the Red Army reach far than Berlin?
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Message 27
Posted by Laura988 (U14088665) on Saturday, 1st August 2009
To those of you who are interested in the Warsaw Uprising:
I encourage you to visit the website of the Warsaw Rising Museum for more information:
As under the communist regime it was not allowed to commemorate or even mention the uprising, the establishment of such a museum was only possible in free Poland and took place 5 years ago. Over this short period it has become one of the best and most popular Polish museums.
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