Wars and Conflicts permalink
Harry Patch RIP
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Â
Posted by zenze (U2198515) on Saturday, 25th July 2009
Harry may have died but all those who fought in WWI will never be forgottn....
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Message 2
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Saturday, 25th July 2009
zenze,
Absolutely.
Regards Spruggs. -
Message 3
Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Saturday, 25th July 2009
We can be thankful that we possess the testimony of so many of those who were involved in WW1 and can therefore gain a good understanding of the tragedy.
It affected everyone's lives - even those still being born today (historical repercussions).
R.I.P. Harry, and thank you. -
Message 4
Posted by Old Hermit (U2900766) on Saturday, 25th July 2009
What do you chaps make of the campaigns to give the last British veteran of the First World War a state funeral? From my understanding, Harry Patch is that last veteran.
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Message 5
Posted by ambi (U13776277) on Saturday, 25th July 2009
I seem to remember that the remaining (at the time) survivors rejected the notion feeling that they were undeserving of all that kind of hoo ha; certainly Allingham and Patch always seemed very modest in recounting their experiences.
I think William Hague suggested a single Memorial service for all the war dead which has cross party support. -
Message 6
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Saturday, 25th July 2009
apparently Harry Patch was offerred the state funeral but refusd it in deference to his mates who never made it
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Message 7
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Saturday, 25th July 2009
I think William Hague suggested a single Memorial service for all the war dead which has cross party support.Â
Don't we have one of those already every year on Remembrance Sunday? -
Message 8
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Monday, 27th July 2009
We can be thankful that we possess the testimony of so many of those who were involved in WW1 and can therefore gain a good understanding of the tragedy.Â
Not a good enough understanding that people are still killing each other as l type in the theatre of war.
It affected everyone's lives - even those still being born today (historical repercussions).Â
Exactly = reprecussions ad in finitum
R. I.P. Harry, and thank you.Â
Listening to a recording of Harry this morning on the radio, l do not believe he would want thanks for something he had no control over then and that still continues, he called all war murder, and more than most today saw the uselesness and waste that he unwittingly become caught up in. Harry Patch did not glorify war but was shamed by it. -
Message 9
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Monday, 27th July 2009
What do you chaps make of the campaigns to give the last British veteran of the First World War a state funeral? From my understanding, Harry Patch is that last veteran.Â
Only chaps interested in war and history then?
I happen to be the fairer sex.
Shouldn't the government have asked Harry Patch his views on it as he was the last survivor before he died perhaps.
Or would the government still willing to use him in death as they were in life?
Even though it was obvious he detested war. -
Message 10
Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Monday, 27th July 2009
Hey! Steady up, sunshineandshowers! You're giving me a hard time as though I am a warmonger. My thanks to Harry were for his testimony, which includes the war-hating bit.
I hope you are not saying that war is never justified. -
Message 11
Posted by 2295wynberglad (U7761102) on Tuesday, 28th July 2009
Hey now come on folks only a fool wants war, Harry did what he had to do just the same as our lads now. All of use who saw war hated it.
AS for rememberance well all I can say is that I parade every year but can honestly say we get a samller band as time goes by. Last year the church was packed because we had a local lad killed, and that was the only time its been so.
Rest in Peace Harry & Henry and thank you both. -
Message 12
Posted by Scriptofacto99 (U3268593) on Tuesday, 28th July 2009
I have to agree with sunshineandshowers. Politicians are already making capital out of the passing of this brave and wise old soldier. Harry Patch witnessed the final few months of the mass slaughter we now refer to as the First World War. Yet he gave no quarter for the the usual jingoistic rhetoric as spouted by beleaguered politicians and was a great believer in reconciliation. At Armistice Day at Passchendaele in November 2008 Harry stated:
"I am very happy to be here today. It is not just an honour for me but for an entire generation. It is important to remember the dead from both sides of the conflict. Irrespective of the uniforms we wore, we were all victims."
As well as laying a wreath for the British dead, Harry also laid a wreath at the cemetery for German victims of the Offensive.
Harry described war as "The calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings." Adding "That it was not worth one life."
So a brave man, but above all, a man of wisdom
who posssessed a level of awareness so often lacking in this crazy world.
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Message 13
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Tuesday, 28th July 2009
Rest in Peace Harry & Henry and thank you both.Â
Seconded.
I'm glad they made it through that horror and lived to old age. So many didn't. -
Message 14
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Tuesday, 28th July 2009
LairigGhru
I hope you are not saying that war is never justifiedÂ
Yes, l am.
But that is not open for discussion on any of the boards.
If war was justified then the first one ever would have been the last one.
They just do not work for good, and that is always the excuse used isn't it? -
Message 15
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Tuesday, 28th July 2009
Scriptofacto 99
Did you hear Harry say during one of his last interviews, when he stated that "all war is murder! murder!"
Henry Allingham spent his last years telling schoolchildren of the waste of war and how wrong it is.
Harry described war as "The calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings." Adding "That it was not worth one life."Â
He also said he believed he loved his friends who were with him, of course he did, and they loved him, that is why men die in war for their friends not their governments or country.
And not because they hate their government appointed 'enemy'. -
Message 16
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Tuesday, 28th July 2009
Hey now come on folks only a fool wants war,Â
No governments desire war for power, and fools follow where Angels fear to tread.
Harry did what he had to do just the same as our lads now. All of use who saw war hated it.Â
Not enough apparantly!
AS for rememberance well all I can say is that I parade every year but can honestly say we get a samller band as time goes by. Last year the church was packed because we had a local lad killed, and that was the only time its been so.Â
Churches should shun war and make peace, not look the other way, until they have to give a funeral service, and become spokespeople for the Army and the government.
Harry Patch probably spent most of his long life re-living at intervals the horrors of war and the death and mayhem he faced.
At peace now most certainly. -
Message 17
Posted by Scriptofacto99 (U3268593) on Tuesday, 28th July 2009
Hi sunshineandshowers,
I do indeed recall that Harry stated "All war is murder!Murder!"in one of his last interviews. Yet all too often their collective voice of sanity was left crying in the wilderness. Warmongers shout the loudest before slinking off when the coffins return, whilst peacemakers are cajoled into silence. Thus it was with Iraq and many other wars.
Soldiers do indeed die for their friends and not our cosseted politicians and not because they hate their government appointed 'enemy.'
Yet will they recall these painful truths at Harry's funeral? Somehow I doubt it! -
Message 18
Posted by Scriptofacto99 (U3268593) on Friday, 7th August 2009
Wonders never cease - they did indeed do Harry proud!
Yesterday, the funeral of Harry Patch, the last British World War I veteran was conducted at Wells Cathedral. Indeed it proved to be a fitting tribute to this gallant old soldier. Harry's friend Jim Ross made clear Harry's primary anti-war message.
"That we should settle disputes by negotiation and compromise, not by war."
In keeping with Harry's ethos of reconciliation,
soldiers from France, Belgium and Germany acted as pall bearers, together with members of the successor to Harry's Regiment, the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry.
R.I.P. Harry, we will remember you.
-
Message 19
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Friday, 7th August 2009
Scriptofacto99
It did indeed.
What a testimony to the waste of war.
No one should ever be expected to kill another human being, whatever reason the politicians give us.
Harry's testament to any young people watching or listening would certianly think twice about where the 'glory' of war is to be found. -
Message 20
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Friday, 7th August 2009
Henry Allingham spent his last years telling schoolchildren of the waste of warÂ
Looking at Henry Allingham's date of birth (he was the oldest man in the world when he died) I was comparing it to that the many prime ministers he lived under. It's quite remarkable. He was actualy older than Anthony Eden. Clement Attlee was only a 13-year-old schoolboy when Henry was born while Winston Churchill was still only a 21-year-old.
If anyone knew anything about the reality of war then it was Henry Allingham and Harry Patch.
Their passing truly marks a lost link to a different age. -
Message 21
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 7th August 2009
Oh, for Gawd's sake, can we break into this maudlin pacifist wake and get real for just a moment?
Harry Patch was a good old boy but hardly typical of his generation.
Many in my family fought the Germans in '14-18 and their sons fought them again in '39-45. I have listened to their tales with awe and amazement. Several came back with arms and other bits blown off. One was gassed badly, another died early from gangrene which slowly rotted his body.
All of these men fought primarily for their mates and then for their country.
They respected the Germans as able and brave but there was not a shred of regret or pacifist philosophising or analysis in terms of 'capitalists getting the proles to do their killing for them'.
They volunteered for war because they did not want England to end up like Belgium, powerless and over-run.
Those here who think that Harry Patch's late-discovered trans-national pacifism would have been popular with the troops of Kitchener's Army have not read enough history. My great-uncle Jack would have turned in his grave if he had thought that a Frenchman or a German was going to escort his coffin!
As for the fantastically absurd comment:-
No governments desire war for power, and fools follow where Angels fear to tread.Â
Wrong on the first claim (lots of governments have gone to war for power), and on the second claim, if you can show me an 'angel', I'll let you know what it's fears are.
People who don't fight for their freedom end up as someone else's slaves.
Pacifists get a free-ride to freedom earned by another's courage.
Go to your local branch of the British Legion and do a head count of the pacifists drinking there...
...then get back to me. -
Message 22
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Friday, 7th August 2009
U3280211
superb - and a reflection of my thoughts
Harry Patch was a good man - and a brave man - and a person as extinct as the dodo
he was born when you accepted your lot - you were the bottom of the pile but thats how it was then - he married and loved his wife - he didnt want to go elsewhere - didnt need drink or drugs and after what he witnessed certainly didnt need violence
what disturbs me is that because he was the last one his thoughts are accepted like a mantra - because he gave his first interview at 100 his thoughts are the only thoughts
1 million brits died - and many more fought - but we ignored their thoughts
many of them (and the dead) would have said "we didnt want to fight but we had to and were glad we did"
the proof was in 1918 europe was cleansed of a nasty regime - and blokes like harry are the reason
st -
Message 23
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Friday, 7th August 2009
Those here who think that Harry Patch's late-discovered trans-national pacifism would have been popular with the troops of Kitchener's Army have not read enough history.Â
Maybe more would have discovered it had they lived as long?
Does anyone know exactly when Harry Patch decided he was a pacifist? Did he come home as one in 1917, or was it a lot later?
People are not obliged to go on believing what they believed at age 20. -
Message 24
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Friday, 7th August 2009
hi mikestone
probably about 4 days after he went into the trenches
the same as most of us would have done - even the warmogers who agreed they should be there
st -
Message 25
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Friday, 7th August 2009
the proof was in 1918 europe was cleansed of a nasty regimeÂ
What regime was that? -
Message 26
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
the proof was in 1918 europe was cleansed of a nasty regime
Quoted from this message
What regime was that?Â
Several regimes of varying degrees of nastiness were overthrown in consequence of WW1.
Unfortunately, many of them (most famously Germany and Russia, but there were others) were sooner or later replaced by even nastier ones. It is not at all clear that there were any fewer nasty regimes around by, say 1934 than there had been in 1914. -
Message 27
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
What were the famously nasty charateristics of the regimes in Germany and Russia in 1914?
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Message 28
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
What were the famously nasty charateristics of the regimes in Germany and Russia in 1914?Â
For Russia, ask any Jew.
For Germany, try googling "Zabern". I agree that as frightfulness goes it was pretty mild stuff by later standards, but in that innocent age it seemed a big deal. -
Message 29
Posted by Scriptofacto99 (U3268593) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
U3280211 (U3280211)
Many members of my family also fought the Germans in both the 1914-18 war and World War II. I would never describe my former soldier relatives as pacifists but as realists - for they at least had
the intellegence to realise that war was not the answer. In their youth they believed in fighting for family and friends, if not for king and country, yet on reflection in their sixties, seventies and eighties they concluded that both world wars were an utter humanitarian disaster for everyone concerned. My father served with the
'Desert Rats' from 1941 to 1945 and lost many good friends along the way. Yet after the war my father made many friends amongst the local German population. He also encountered the horrific spectacle of women and children who had been brutally raped by the advancing Red Army. Nothing had prepared him for this reality of war and certainly not his military training. Yet he and may others had to live with these horrific images which had become indelibly imprinted in their minds.
One of my uncles who served in the paras during WWII was captured at Arnhem. It was German medics who saved his life. Even though he spent the final months of the war as a POW he never had a bad word to say about the Germans.
Many former soldiers from both world wars never set foot in the British Legion. One old soldier remarked "The Legion was mainly a refuge for flag wavers and other ne'er-do-wells who'd hardly ever seen action and who's tales became taller as the pint pots brimmed ever higher." He continued, "After the war was over we were glad to put these events behind us."
There are certain aspects of our lives over which we have little or no control. Where, when and to whom we are born will often determine the outcome of our lives. This equally applies to a young plumber from Bath such as Harry Patch as it does to a young farm labourer from Westphalia. Both were victims of war. -
Message 30
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
Here is a link to the Zabern Affair:
There is also the evidence of the behaviour of the German Army in the opening months which was effective in mobilising both Allied and US opinion against it:
As in WWII their behaviour was far worse in the east than it was in the west:
We should also not forget the Ottoman Empire and its treatment of the Armenians which the Germans witnessed and, some have argued, participated in (the Turkish Army had German officers) providing a template for the later attempted holocaust of the Jews:
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Message 31
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
"After the war was over we were glad to put these events behind us."Â
Maybe if they had not been so deliberately forgetful or if a certain corporal in the German Army had shared their view your father's generation would not have had to make the same sacrifices all over again. -
Message 32
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
We should also not forget the Ottoman Empire and its treatment of the Armenians Â
Indeed, but in that respect the postwar regime was little if any better, as far as treatment of Armenians (or Greeks) was concerned.
My point was not that 1914 regimes weren't nasty - I quite agree that many of them were - but whether the war noticeably improved matters on that score. -
Message 33
Posted by MB (U177470) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
I did not notice any comments in the news about the completely insensitive attempt by Â鶹ԼÅÄ News to interview one of his friends outside Wells Cathedral during the one minute silence.
I watched the service on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ Somerset online page but they were just taking a feed from Â鶹ԼÅÄ News so dropped it before the end so they could go over to the weather forecast and One O'Clock News. -
Message 34
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
Hi JMB
yes - this disgraceful conduct by Â鶹ԼÅÄ News was raised on the 'Points Of View' messageboard:
Some have suggested that it was perhaps an unintentional blunder but surely the Â鶹ԼÅÄ is supposed to be a well-briefed and professional organisation. It was totally unacceptable considering that even the interviewee had to remind the Â鶹ԼÅÄ reporter to respect the Minute's Slience. -
Message 35
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
JMB,
It sparked some comment over on the POV boards;
-
Message 36
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
Vizzer,
Didn't realise your message was already there. -
Message 37
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
No probs Triceratops - easy enough done.
-
Message 38
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
Allthose who fought in WW1 should be remembered equally.
If any commemoration be due with the passing of the last Tommys it should be to the passng of a great generation.
Most of these men were ordinary working class who did not have the opportunity to reach a ripe old age.
However there is one more remaining British Tommy of WW1 still alive in Australia.He was navy and I don't think fought in the trenches. -
Message 39
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
Hi vera
I don't think that Claude Choules as a seaman qualifies as a 'Tommy'. That describes the soldiers (i.e. the Army).
You are right, however, that Harry Patch was just one of very many and that his death should be seen in that light. Interestingly, however, there was a television documentary made in the mid-1990s to mark the 80th anniversary of the First World War when there were still about 250 veterans still alive. Of those interviewed in the program (about 20) none of them was jingoistic or gung-ho about their experiences and none was spitting hatred at German people. They all just seemed united in remembering the sheer waste of it all.
A book came out around the same time called 'Britain's Last Tommies' by Richard van Emden. This contains interviews with scores of veterans who were still alive in 1994. Again - very little personal bitterness towards 'the enemy' - just an overwhelming impression of sorrow. -
Message 40
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
Harry Patch was just one of very many and that his death should be seen in that light. Interestingly, however, there was a television documentary made in the mid-1990s to mark the 80th anniversary of the First World War when there were still about 250 veterans still alive. Of those interviewed in the program (about 20) none of them was jingoistic or gung-ho about their experiences and none was spitting hatred at German people. They all just seemed united in remembering the sheer waste of it all.Â
And this, I suspect, is what lies behind the interest in Harry Patch - he represents those who didn't get wasted, as much as those who did.
His survival - not merely of Passchendaele, but of the whole war, and then living on past 100 - strikes a chord because it symbolises the triumph of life over death. -
Message 41
Posted by MB (U177470) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
"His survival - not merely of Passchendaele, but of the whole war"
He did not survive the "whole war", he was conscripted in October 1916 and was sent to France in June 1917. -
Message 42
Posted by 2295wynberglad (U7761102) on Saturday, 8th August 2009
I will not decry Harry or any who serve or have served. However I do take offence at the saying that we in the RBL are flag wavers who drink and whos tales become taller by the pint.
I for one do work unpaid to assist those who fall on hard times, the homeless the old and the ill. THEY ALL SERVED just as Harry & Henry did.
And some of them still suffer. OUR work goes on. -
Message 43
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
Scriptofacto (29)
Many members of my family also fought the Germans in both the 1914-18 war and World War II.Â
Pleased to hear it. I’m sure many on these boards will have the same experience of families making such sacrifices as ours.
I would never describe my former soldier relatives as pacifists but as realists - for they at least had
the intelligence to realise that war was not the answer.Â
That rather depends on the nature of the threat faced. War might not be the answer to your neighbour’s hedge growing to tall but if an external enemy threatens to invade your country then war might be the only answer (other than surrender, of course)
In their youth they believed in fighting for family and friends, if not for king and country, yet on reflection in their sixties, seventies and eighties they concluded that both world wars were an utter humanitarian disaster for everyone concerned.Â
Leaving aside the mildly snide implication that the men in your family grew to be smarter than the men in mine (a topic which cannot be settled, as the mean IQ scores of our long-dead relatives are not available as evidence); there is the obvious tautology that men too old to fight don’t much care for fighting.
Androgen production decreases as men get older which is one factor which explains why armies tend to be made-up of young adults.
See:-
Since your seventy and eighty year-old relatives will never be called upon to fight to defend their nation, no army need consider their pacifist musings. As long as our twenty year olds still have some bottle we should stand a chance.
My father served with the
'Desert Rats' from 1941 to 1945 and lost many good friends along the way.Â
Well-done him, my commiserations for his lost friends.
Yet after the war my father made many friends amongst the local German population.Â
Are there many Germans still in El Alamein and Tobruk? I was unaware of that.
He also encountered the horrific spectacle of women and children who had been brutally raped by the advancing Red Army. Nothing had prepared him for this reality of warÂ
Yes, everyone here will know about that awful episode. We have talked about it many times.
As others have pointed out, above, had the Germans not treated the Russians, Poles and their political enemies with such utter brutality during 1941-1944, setting-up death camps, forced-labour camps and carrying out scorched-earth policies in Byelorussia and elsewhere, perhaps the Russian troops might not have wanted such terrible revenge for their earlier suffering.
One of my uncles who served in the paras during WWII was captured at Arnhem. It was German medics who saved his life. Even though he spent the final months of the war as a POW he never had a bad word to say about the Germans.Â
By that stage in the war the Germans knew they would lose. It made sense to build-up a few brownie points with the Allies for trading-in later. Such tenderness was rarely shown to Soviet prisoners who were often shot or left to starve to death.
You then launch into a rather nasty attack on the British Legion
"The Legion was mainly a refuge for flag wavers and other ne'er-do-wells who'd hardly ever seen action and who's tales became taller as the pint pots brimmed ever higher." Â
Unless you can provide a source for that 'quotation' I’ll assume that you simply invented it to suit your case for late-onset pacificism.
I completely endorse 2295 wynberglad’s eloquent response to your rude calumny about the RBL.
I wouldn’t have been so meausured.
Perhaps you should attend one of these:-
If you think that RBL are just a bunch of fantasist, jingoistic drunks. -
Message 44
Posted by 2295wynberglad (U7761102) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
U3280211.
My thanks to you for your kind support, in past messages I have pointed out that I was one of the very luck ones who was not sent to Korea, but was posted to Paris.
I like so may other lost relatives in the war uncles aunts etc. May I make it very clear The RBL is the main support along with SSAFA for ex servicemen and women. My reason in staying as a member is I belive in its values, and yes now in my branch over 500 member less than 20% exservice. And I have come across the bull boys and when questioned find out that they never were in the forces.
If you wish to know how many our team have assisted this year its 37 fro national service to old men & women.
And Like Harry & Henry the most modest of folks you could wish to meet.
Just as a bye 3 of my mate never came home from Korea. -
Message 45
Posted by ambi (U13776277) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
Well played U3280211, put up a post to deliberately stir up some controversy, and then manufacture some outrage when you get your desired result. Keep up the good work!
My father served with the
'Desert Rats' from 1941 to 1945 and lost many good friends along the way.
Quoted from this message
Well-done him, my commiserations for his lost friends.
Yet after the war my father made many friends amongst the local German population.
Quoted from this message
Are there many Germans still in El Alamein and Tobruk? I was unaware of that. Â
Much as they deserved to sit in their backsides in N.Africa, in fact the Desert Rats/7th Armoured Divison fought in Italy, Normandy and through Europe until the defeat and occupation of Germany. -
Message 46
Posted by bri (U14097482) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
I am 56 years old, I have not ever fought in war, only seen it on TV.
My dad was in the D-Day Landings etc and never spoke if it. He is now dead and I still wonder what he saw and felt.
I cried my eyes out at the Harry Patch documentary.
These guys and girls deserve so much more than the British Gvnt offer them.
As for the modern day soldiers in Iraq and more importantly Afghanistan..... well... words now fail me.
I give all my support and more to ANY soldier.
RIP Harry, good man. -
Message 47
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
Since your seventy and eighty year-old relatives will never be called upon to fight to defend their nation, no army need consider their pacifist musings. As long as our twenty year olds still have some bottle we should stand a chance.Â
Provided they also have healthy critical faculties and don't go rushing off to war just because a government says its a good idea. That way they're still around on the day they really are needed. -
Message 48
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
U3280211
Your arrogance is alarming, you are completely insensitive and have an unhealthy regard for war imho, as long as you are not expected to the dying bit of course. How think you then?
Oh! of course send in the 20 year olds, anyone older would have more experience of life, Oh..and of course far more sense.
I am in complete agreement with Scriptofacto
on the RBL.
I am most uninpressed with the link. It glorifies war and its continuance as far as l am concerned. -
Message 49
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
brisig
I cried my eyes out at the Harry Patch documentary.
These guys and girls deserve so much more than the British Gvnt offer themÂ
Yes they do, a chance to live and not to die for Glory of the politicians and lies.
Harry Patch l suspect would have expected tears to flow in the pity and waste of war and young lives.
War is a crime against humanity. -
Message 50
Posted by sunshineandshowers (U13926964) on Sunday, 9th August 2009
dukess2008
Well played U3280211, put up a post to deliberately stir up some controversy, and then manufacture some outrage when you get your desired result. Keep up the good work!Â
Change 'post' to 'politics'
And the rest..... thats how wars are manufactured isn't it?
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