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Crossing the Volga

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Thursday, 2nd July 2009

  I'm re-reading the excellent (and epic) Stalingrad by Antony Beevor and I noted that as the troops of the 6th Army forward recon division reached the Volga they made no attempt to cross the river North of Stalingrad - in effect relying on von Richthofen's bombers to pulverise the Russian lines of communication (which included as I've also noted guns from 62nd Army commanded by Chuikov).
  
  Was a major error (apart from no just driving down past Stalingrad toward Grozny & Astrakhan) not attemting to cross the Volga and swing an armoured fist into the rear of the Russian right flank and there by forcing the Russians to not only defend the ruined city but also deal with this attack.
  
  I appreciate crossing any water obstacle is tough but the Germans had crossed the Dneiper, Don as well as Bug and numerous other rivers in Barbarossa - yet this was never tried.
  
  Might it have worked?

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 2nd July 2009

  The map on page 346 of the book shows that the Volga river system north of Stalingrad is both wide and complex.
  
  The Russians had great difficulty with their daily crossings of the river, in the other direction, at a narrower point, and they did not have thousand mile supply-lines to consider.
  
  How far north should the Germans have gone to attempt such a crossing, in your view?
  
  If the Germans were unable to take Stalingrad on the west bank of the Volga, how could they realistically hope to capture land beyond the city, on the eastern bank?

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Thursday, 2nd July 2009

  Taking the City was a house-to-house cat-fight, which the Germans were neither ready or trained for, and a total waste of a really good Panzer Army. Sweeping across open country with a tank division was what they were best at.
  
  Maybe the only way to take Stalingrad would have been to take the far bank of the river, and cut off the supplies of men, etc, that were being pumped into the ruins every night by the Russians.
  
  Mind you, that leaves them even farther from home, and even more exposed to the winter counter-attack . . .
  
  
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Friday, 3rd July 2009

  Beevor's book is OK regarding what became the battle of Stalingrad but isn't very good on the events leading upto it.
  
  What you have to remember is that Stalingrad was only a secondary objective of Case Blue, the original plan was to encircle and destroy those Soviet troops facing AG Centre's front in the bend of the Don River, then secure the left bank of the Volga which would ensure the protection of the north-east flank of the drive into the Caucasus. Without this protection the drive into the Caucasus would be over exposed to a Soviet counter-attack in int's rear.
  
  It was never the intention of Case Blue to cross the Volga, the German Summer offensive of 1942 was intended to capture the oilfields in the Caucasus.
  
  It started to go wrong when Hitler started to intefere in the plan, as usual, relatively few Soviet troops were captured in the enciclements and Hitler took this as a sign that the Soviet army was a beaten force, when in fact most of them were managing to avoid the encirclements. He continued to alter unit assignments etc, which meant the end result became what we now today as Stalingrad.
  
  The biggest mistake was the diversion of 4th Pz Army, Von Kleist remembered "the 4th Pz Army was advancing....on my left. it could have taken Stalingrad without a fight, at the end of July, but was diverted south to help me in crossing the Don. I did not need it's aid, and it merely congested the roads I was using. when it turned North again, a fortnight later, the Russians had gathered just sufficient forces at Stalingrad to check it."

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Friday, 3rd July 2009

  girrafe47
  
  "Taking the City was a house-to-house cat-fight, which the Germans were neither ready or trained for, and a total waste of a really good Panzer Army. Sweeping across open country with a tank division was what they were best at. "
  
  Stalingrad wasn't your typical house-to-house fight, most of the residential areas had already been flattened by artillery and the Luftwaffe. The Soviet resistance centered on particular buildings or sections in the industrial area, e.g. the Grain Elevator, Barikady Gun Factory and the Krasny Oktyabr Steel Factory. And German combat units were low on manpower way before the Soviet counter-attack occured.
  
  It wasn't a waste of a Panzer Army either, as no Panzer Army was engaged in Stalingrad directly, although 3 Panzer divisions were ultimately trapped in the pocket only one, 24th Pz, was engaged in Stalingrad itself.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 13th July 2009

  Steelers... hmmm very interesting quote... it was clearly someone from the inside undermining the German attack or something... anyway the whole attack in Russia undermined the German war effort: Russians, despite an arms race, had not showed big signs of direct aggresion against the Romanian oil fields (major supplier to Germans) or against Nazi Germans whom they considered as the least worst enemy (the enemy where the capitalists). Thus Germans had all the time to clear off the western fronts and turn their attention subsequently to Russia. Even if Russia could be better prepared, Germans would bring along German, French and British stuff + 1 million soldiers more so they stood better chances.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 13th July 2009

  Russians, despite an arms race, had not showed big signs of direct aggresion against the Romanian oil fields (major supplier to Germans)Β  There was a huge offensive build-up going on in and around the Carpathian mountains (ground forces) and at the outlet of Dunai river to the Black Sea (navy) in the 1st half of 1941. Just the list of armies being redeployed there tells the story (see Suvorov's series from Icebreaker through The Last Republic).

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 14th July 2009

  it was clearly someone from the inside undermining the German attack or somethingΒ 
  
  Yes. It was Hitler, who played to a political timescale, not a military one.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 14th July 2009

  Did Hitler lose his bottle on the banks of the Volga then?
  
  After all a true "warlord" that didn't care for the East bank of the river would have flown half the remainder of Richthofen's bombers and dumped every gram of the CW agents that were available to the Wehrmacht and then watched how quickly the Sovs. were busted down - fair enough I daresay the Allies might have retaliated in kind but without D-Day even an Allied CW strike on say Hamburg would have been bareable to some extent as only an invasion of Europe was going to stop Nazi hegemony.
  
  Maybe not the sweetest/lightest nor greatest scenario ever but if I was in his chair in October 1942 then I'd have went for it - after all before winter was fully locked in the 6th Army (with Hoth's 4th Army) could have won the battle - withdraw to Kalach and the Don and then blitz the Sovs with CW's and HE bombs and then wait until they either go mad and try and fight out westwards or just bypass Stalingrad entirely the following spring (which he should have done anyway).

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