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Ice wins the battle?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Thursday, 11th June 2009

  The local school has had a visit from some story-tellers and among their stories was one about a battle on Russian soil with German (were they called German then?) troops around 1250. The story was told that the Russians, heavily outnumbered, were ordered to retreat against the soldiers' wills. The German soldiers chased them over an ice lake which broke and drowned them, allowing the Russians to 'win'.
  
  I can find on the internet the Battle of the Ice at Lake Peipus in 1242 between Teutonic and Russian troops but I don't notice those particular details. Would that be it? Or is this quite a distortion of history?
  
  Cheers, Caro.

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• Message 2

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  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 11th June 2009

  This battle is quite famous. The 'Germans' are usually referred to by history as the Teutonic Knights.
  
  Eisenstein made a famous film about this incident, which I saw in a special showing at the South Bank with orchestral accompaniment some years ago. Excellent piece of propaganda.
  
  I suspect that this film has become 'history'.
  
  According to Wiki, the ice collapsed after the battle was already all but won.
  
  
  
  

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Thursday, 11th June 2009

  Caro, I have a friend who is a professional storyteller. As her daughter is always reminding me: "Don't believe a word she says - she's a professional liar!"

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  Posted by cthulhu1 (U13911150) on Thursday, 11th June 2009

  Caro,
  
  It is based on fact, the Rus under Alexander Nevsky did defeat a force of "Teutonic" knights in the Battle of the Ice in 1246. These knights were substantially outnumbered by the Rus (albeit these Rus were mostly levys)and that the ice broke as the defeated knights retreated.
  
  It was significant as it was a victory be solid determined infantry against armoured cavalry, a rarity at the time.
  
  Beware that some modern historians tend to downplay the significance of Nevsky's victories as a general put down of Russian history as a whole.
  
  The famous film Alexander Nevsky retells the tale as a glorious propoganda piece and is well worth watching.
  
  Wilyc

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 11th June 2009

  Yes there is also some other twist to the story: in western Europe they tend of thinking Teutonic knights as "the metal clad, horse riding" representing a richer and more progressed west fighting inside a more regressive east. In fact, the three Russian kingdoms (Kiev, Moscow and Novgorod against which the Teutons fought) back then when 2-3 centuries ahead in civilisational terms than the Germans. In fact Nevsky was defending civilisation against a bunch of utterly illiterate, backwards and fanatic invaders who were there for the rape and loot. I think the 1920s film is indeed propaganda but says less than the above!

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  Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Friday, 12th June 2009

  Thank you for all that. I am writing about this story-telling for our local community paper. I have written "Another historical story, told with much flourish, was of the Battle of the Ice in 1242 between German troops invading Russia and their Russian counterparts who were saved when the Germans fell through ice and were killed."
  
  For historical accuracy I would like to add something more, but don't think the paper will want a whole lot of extraneous information. Someone here said 1246 but the date on wikipedia and others said 1242. And I see Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide give the movie 4 stars and calls it a masterpiece. "Magnificently visualised battle sequences, wonderful Prokofiev score." and "A disturbing parallel to world situation at time of production."
  
  The sites about this mentioned setting back crusades for a century so they must have been there with more than rape and looting on their minds, I think.
  
  Cheers, Caro.

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  Posted by cthulhu1 (U13911150) on Tuesday, 16th June 2009

  My apologies for a duff typing finger, 1242 it was.
  
  As for the opponents, as mentioned the majority were probably Latvian levies (Chudes sp?) but there was also a core of armoured crusaders, although these were more correctly Livonian.
  
  That said of course the film version is only concerned about demonising the German/Teutonic and rouse and unite the Russian people.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Thursday, 2nd July 2009

  Caro
  
  Alexander Nevski is one of the most stout figures in Russian history.
  He was prince of Novgorod and Vladimir at this time togheter with Suzdal the strongest Russian states.
  In the late 12th century had the Danes and the Germans got the sanctions by the pope to start a northern crusades,after the Wendes and Prus in todays northern Germany and Poland was chrushed,did they put their eyes on the baltic states.
  The Danes took Estonia but was later forced to back down to keep their possions in northern Germany, after their medling in the Swedish civil war had ended at two great defeats at Lena and Gestrilen had cost much of their strenght.
  So the two German knights order the order of the Sword and the Teutonic knights took over nowdays Latvia and Estonia but where halted by the Lithuanians.Meanwhile the Swedes took Finland.
  In the middle of the 13th cent was those forces advancing into the ortodox christian lands of the Rus,Germans against Pskov and Swedes against Novgorod.
  In two epic battles against the Swedes at river Neva(Alexander did got his honorofic Nevsky from this battle) around nowdays St Petersburg 1240 and the battle at the ice outside Pskov 1242 did he stop this advance.
  Those created borders was kept for nearly two hundred years when they first was pushed eastwards by the Poles and Swedes and then westward.
  
  Your friend
  Hasse

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• Message 9

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  Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Thursday, 9th July 2009

  Hasse, I see you apologising for not replying to someone, which reminded me that I had not thanked you for this. I am afraid my knowledge of European history is very sparse and especially of battles. Even when I am told things they don't sink in very far and I forget them fairly quickly. Hopefully I will remember Alexander Nevski for a while.
  
  Best Wishes, Caro.
  
  People tend to say after retirement that they don't understand how they ever had time to work.

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Giselle-Leah (U1725276) on Thursday, 9th July 2009

  
  
  I remember seeing the film Alexander Nevsky at the NFT (National Film Theatre) about 30 years ago at an Eisenstein retrospective. In the blurb they gave you at the time (funny how what one remembers!) they said that the film was shot in summer. To show ice on screen they used tons and tons of salt. All the actors were sweltering under their armour in the heat.
  
  I think the film is the Russian equivalent of our Henry V - it is a rousing morale booster and imo it is deliberate that the Teutons are referred to as Germans even tho "Germany" as a nation did not exist in 1242, just as in Henry V the French, who were our allies in 1942, represented the "Germans" as our enemies at that time.
  
  Both films are simply wonderful.

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