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Battle For Middle Earth
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Wednesday, 20th May 2009
Anyone have any thoughts on the C4 docudrama? I thought it not too bad though it didn't tell me much I ddn't know.
For me the best bit was in Part 1, where that Norse warrior defending the bridge got stabbed fromm underneath. I understand it really happened thus, and if it didn't it should have. A classic case of "They don't like it up 'em". -
Message 2
Posted by MattJ18 (U13798409) on Wednesday, 20th May 2009
I think I'm right in saying that the Saxons recorded there being a lone berserker who defended the bridge whereas the Vikings didn't, which is a bit odd (the Saxons are unlikely to make up a foreign war hero!)
Overall I thought it was a bit boring. I'm not sure how Channel 4 managed to take one of the most exciting times in history and make it seem dull but they did. I think that's one of the draw backs with the whole docu-drama thing, they're neither one nor the other. Too shallow to be interesting as a documentary, too slow and disinterested to cut it as a drama. It's a shame Channel 4 didn't make a sort of 'Band of Brothers' for 1066, or even make a dramatisation of the 'Last English King'. Either would have been better. I don't think that there's ever been a really good version of the 1066 saga told on screen (although I recall there being talk of a couple of films being made).
The bizarre Lord of the Rings allusions were irritating as well. -
Message 3
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Wednesday, 20th May 2009
The bizarre Lord of the Rings allusions were irritating as well.Ìý
It claimed that "Orc" was a real Anglo-Saxon word nmeaning "monster" or "foreigner".
Overall, though, you're probably right. Maybe someone should do "Hereward the Wake" again. -
Message 4
Posted by MattJ18 (U13798409) on Wednesday, 20th May 2009
Not just Orcs, but calling it the Battle for Middle Earth as well. Although I'll stand corrected if someone tells me that England at that time was known as Middle Earth. I've never heard the phrase before. Wasn't there a bit about Elfs somewhere too?
Generally speaking dramas like these need a slightly bigger budget so that it looks like there is more than 12 men in each army. Would it have been too hard to ask a couple of the reenactment societies to join in? They'd have probably done it for free! -
Message 5
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
Well, Tolkein was Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford from 1925 to 1945, so a lot of LOTR terminology is lilely to be of OE origin. If Wiki can be believed "Middlearth" is indeed of Anglo-Saxon derivation.
Going back to the Orcs, though, I couldn't help chuckling at a word for "monster" or "demon" being also rendered as "foreigner". A very English attitude, and one which, when I listen to the news, I must confess to occasionally sharing. -
Message 6
Posted by Andrew Host (U1683626) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
Hi Milkstone,
I think you'll find that attitude the world over. If I recall the term Sioux meant 'human' - quite what did that make everyone else?
I'm sure the members here can come up with many other examples...
Cheers
Andrew -
Message 7
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
Wiki can be believed "Middlearth" is indeed of Anglo-Saxon derivation.
Ìý
Yes, Wiki can be trusted on this one - Middle-earth can indeed be traced back to Old English, and is cognate with the Old Norse MiÂðgarðr (or Midgard in English).
Similar Old English references in LotR include:
Riddermark - "Ridder" meaning "knight" and "mark" meaning "borderland", as in "march" in English, or the "mark" in the name Denmark.
Tolkien based the Rohirrim language on the Mercian dialect of Old English, and the characters' names from this part of Middle Earth are Old English names (e.g. Grima Wormtongue, Theodred, Eomer, Eowyn.
Samwise's name comes from the Old English sámwÃs meaning "stupid" (strangely so!) -
Message 8
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
In addition to my last post, some other LotR names that come from Old English or other Germanic languages:
Gandolf - comes from Old Norse Gandalfr meaning "wand"/"magic" (gand) and "elf" (alfr). Tolkien said that his name should be pronounced with a /v/ sound at the end rather than an /f/ sound, as in the original Old Norse.
Wraith - Scots Lallans word for "ghost", "spectre" or "apparition"
Sméagol - Tolkien took the name from the Old English word "smygel", meaning burrow. -
Message 9
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
I think you'll find that attitude the world over. If I recall the term Sioux meant 'human' - quite what did that make everyone else?
I'm sure the members here can come up with many other examples...Ìý
The Chinese name for China is 'Jung Guo' which means the 'Middle Kingdom'. -
Message 10
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
I didn't particularly like the Lord of the Rings analogies, but I guess they had their uses....
My son dislikes historical documentaries, but he's a LOTR fan, and this docu-drama caught his attention. So, I can't complain, really!
Sometimes, the chronicles have to be read with an element of caution. For example, the idea of a sole warrior holding up the bridge is a questionable one. There are archers in the Saxon army, and the idea that not one of them thought to shoot the Viking warrior is a ludicrous one! I really don't think chivalry was that big a thing, when ways of life were at stake.... -
Message 11
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
Sometimes, the chronicles have to be read with an element of caution. For example, the idea of a sole warrior holding up the bridge is a questionable one. There are archers in the Saxon army, and the idea that not one of them thought to shoot the Viking warrior is a ludicrous one! I really don't think chivalry was that big a thing, when ways of life were at stake....Ìý
Actually, ways of life probably weren't at stake at Stamford Bridge in anything like the way they were at Hastings.
Northern and eastern England had a large Danish and Norse population (King Harold was himself half Danish) and the languages were so similar that Norwegians fleeing the battle were able to converse with local Northumbrians - though their accents gave them away. So having a Norwegian king might not have been such a big deal. It's main effect might have been on the balance between English regions, with Northumbria counting for more and Wessex for less. Perhaps the capital of England would be York instead of London.
Re the bridge you may have a point. At least the Norwegian would have needed a bigger shield than he seemed to have. Or maybe the bridge was barricaded in some way so that he wasn't such an easy mark. But I kind of hope it's true. Corporal Jones would have loved it so much. -
Message 12
Posted by Spare Mousie (U8154627) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
Northern and eastern England had a large Danish and Norse population (King Harold was himself half Danish) and the languages were so similar that Norwegians fleeing the battle were able to converse with local Northumbrians - though their accents gave them away.Ìý
Didn't stop them sacking & burning Cleveland, Scarborough & Holderness though... was it Scarborough where they hurled blazing timbers down the hill or set fire to the birds or something?
Hardrada was known for his 'elaborately creative cruelty' according to one historian whose name escapes me. Nice. -
Message 13
Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
Although I'll stand corrected if someone tells me that England at that time was known as Middle Earth. I've never heard the phrase before.Ìý
The concept of Middle Earth comes from Norse mythology, so might have been familiar to the pagan Anglo-Saxons of the settlement period. There's a book by Brian Bates called 'The real Middle earth'which turns out to be about this period (I havent read it though)
Using the phrase to refer to events in the English kingdom 400 years after the natives converted to Christianity does seem to be stretching a point, to put it mildly. -
Message 14
Posted by Spare Mousie (U8154627) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
Using the phrase to refer to events in the English kingdom 400 years after the natives converted to Christianity does seem to be stretching a point, to put it mildly.Ìý
Agree. Though the concept of King/Lord as 'ring-giver' is something they might have made use of, if they were going down that road? -
Message 15
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
Didn't stop them sacking & burning Cleveland, Scarborough & Holderness though... was it Scarborough where they hurled blazing timbers down the hill or set fire to the birds or something?
Hardrada was known for his 'elaborately creative cruelty' according to one historian whose name escapes me. Nice. Ìý
Iirc he burned quite a few places in Denmark too in his (unsuccessful) attempt to win its crown.
It was even sometimes done as a crude form of law-enforcement. Wasn't Godwin exiled for refusing to burn Dover when ordered to do so as a punishment for the townsfolk having insulted some Norman friend of King Edward the Confessor? -
Message 16
Posted by Spare Mousie (U8154627) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
Iirc he burned quite a few places in Denmark too in his (unsuccessful) attempt to win its crown.Ìý
Interesting... & that war being (I suppose) one of the main reasons for England's relative peace in Edward the Confessor's reign...
Wasn't Godwin exiled for refusing to burn Dover when ordered to do so as a punishment for the townsfolk having insulted some Norman friend of King Edward the Confessor?Ìý
That would be Useless of Boulogne...
From the Norman Conquest website:
Eustace is said to have married a sister of Edward the Confessor, Godgifu, who was the widow of Drogo of Dreux, Count of Mantes. In 1051 Eustace, after a visit to his brother-in-law, was returning home to Boulogne and planned to pass the night in Dover. Such was the arrogance of his followers in demanding lodging and hospitality of the Saxon inhabitants that a skirmish broke out with loss of life on both sides. Edward the Confessor was enraged and demanded that the citizens of Dover be summarily punished, but Godwin, Earl of Wessex, advised moderation. The incident underlined the conflict between Anglo-Saxon and Norman in England and precipitated the banishment of Godwin and his sons. In 1066 the Papal Banner was carried by Eustace at the Battle of Hastings, but the next year he changed sides. The People of Dover he had formerly oppressed were now suffering even worse under Odo, Bishop of Bayeux, and they asked Eustace to become their leader in revolt. Accordingly he landed with his men to take the castle, but failed miserably and fled at the news of Odo's approach. He subsequently made peace with William the Conqueror and enjoyed the fruits of the conquest. Ìý -
Message 17
Posted by Spare Mousie (U8154627) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
"They don't like it up 'em".Ìý
Famous Old English war-cry, that...
It felt a bit ironic that the avowed object of the program was to prove that there was more to 1066 than the Battle of Hastings... but the docu-drama started in September 1066 and only succeeded in demonstrating that there were three battles instead of one.
In fact, there was actually a lot more conflict in that dreadful year if you include Tostig's raids in the spring, a probable naval engagement between the English & Norman fleets in the summer & the Battle of Southwark after Hastings (not that I really wanted to see *more* people being hacked to bits) plus all sorts of other happenings …
- Northern Rebellion and near Civil War; rebels encamped in Oxford (late 1065)
- consecration of Westminster Abbey (28 Dec 2065)
- stormy winter; death of King Edward on Twelfth Night
- coronation, wedding and northern tour of Harold (to persuade the people to support his rule)
- visitation of the comet (around Easter)
- Tostig attacks the coast, is driven off and some of his ships mutiny; Harold raises an army believing that Tostig is in collusion with William
- after watching the coast all summer – and possibly engaging in a ‘naval battle’ referred to in one of the sources – English conscript farmers agitate to return home and gather in the harvest
- much of Harold's fleet caught in a storm & lost on the return to London from his base on the Isle of Wight in early September
- Tostig & Hardrada's rendezvous; burning of Scarborough
- Harold Godwinson seriously ill according to some of the sources (he is said to have fallen into a delirium at one point during the great march north)
- William's invasion (one or two ships landed in Romney by mistake and their crews were killed on the beaches – something William later punished by destroying the town)
- post-Hastings wait for submissions that never came
- siege of London; 'King Edgar'; final surrender of the English leaders at Berkhamsted in November
- William begins to build the Tower of London (his Green Zone)
- William's coronation on Christmas Day in the midst of rioting
Etc. -
Message 18
Posted by Spare Mousie (U8154627) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
(28 Dec 2065)Ìý
Or maybe not... -
Message 19
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
Irc he burned quite a few places in Denmark too in his (unsuccessful) attempt to win its crown.
Quoted from this message
Interesting... & that war being (I suppose) one of the main reasons for England's relative peace in Edward the Confessor's reign...Ìý
Undoubtedly - it dragged on until 1064.
The victor, Sweyn Estridsson (spelling variable) is an interesting character in himself. As I understand it, he lost virtually every battle to Hardrada, but never accepted defeat - just kept on coming back for more until Hardrada got worn out. Would it be too anachronistic to see him as Denmark's George Washington?
His brother, Bjorn Estridsson, was a foster son of Earl Godwin, until Sweyn Godwinsson murdered him. I sometimes wonder if Godwin was "grooming" Bjorn to be the next king (the Estridssons were King Canute's nephews) so that he would have succeeded Edward if still alive. Might have had interesting results, since Bjorn would presumably have Denmark as an ally. -
Message 20
Posted by Spare Mousie (U8154627) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
His brother, Bjorn Estridsson, was a foster son of Earl Godwin, until Sweyn Godwinsson murdered him. I sometimes wonder if Godwin was "grooming" Bjorn to be the next king (the Estridssons were King Canute's nephews) so that he would have succeeded Edward if still alive. Might have had interesting results, since Bjorn would presumably have Denmark as an allyÌý
Why then did Sweyn murder him? And what was Godwin doing with a foster son when he had six of his own? Unless as you say, he had 'adopted' Beorn with the Danes¡¯ permission as his preferred candidate for the succession. In which case, the murder must have caused something of an international incident. Wasn¡¯t he also a cousin of the Godwinesons? (G-d, what a family!) Incidentally, I remember reading that it was Harold Godwineson who insisted on a decent burial for Beorn...
(Interesting speculation, btw.) -
Message 21
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Friday, 22nd May 2009
His brother, Bjorn Estridsson, was a foster son of Earl Godwin, until Sweyn Godwinsson murdered him. I sometimes wonder if Godwin was "grooming" Bjorn to be the next king (the Estridssons were King Canute's nephews) so that he would have succeeded Edward if still alive. Might have had interesting results, since Bjorn would presumably have Denmark as an ally
Quoted from this message
Why then did Sweyn murder him?Ìý
Possibly because Sweyn himself wanted to be the Godwinsson candidate for kingship. A pretty forlorn hope after such behaviour, but Sweyn appears to have been borderline psycho (if not indeed some way over the border) and may well have had unrealistic expectations. -
Message 22
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Saturday, 23rd May 2009
Sat, 23 May 2009 16:50 GMT, in reply to Idamante in message 13
The concept of Middle Earth comes from Norse mythology, so might have been familiar to the pagan Anglo-Saxons of the settlement period.Ìý
I have a book of Anglo-Saxon literature, and the term definitely crops up in that - I *think* in 'Beowulf', and possibly elsewhere as well.
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