Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Battle of the Atlantic books
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Message 1.Β
Posted by seanG03 (U9345730) on Monday, 18th May 2009
Could anyone recommend good reads about the Battle of the Atlantic, defence and tactics against the wolpack and merchant shipping convoys. Anything told from the Merchant seaman's perspective? They must have had heroes as well as the Royal Navy?
Did Naval Radar play a part in the war to combat the U boats? Or other inventions?
Another point did the U Boat admiral Donitz never actually sailed in one during the war? Was that why he did not seem bothered about the high losses? -
Message 2
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 18th May 2009
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔport by Bryne Marsh (Sefton Council) gives the\story (And lots of pics) of Bootle which was as the titled suggests, the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Port for Second Escort group, among others. Well worth a read.
G F -
Message 3
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 18th May 2009
Sean
Not sure whether you wanted a general history or a "frontline" description.
John Terraine's "Business in Great Waters" outlines the anti-submarine battle in both World Wars.
Martin Middlebrook's "Convoy" follows one particular convoy battle in the middle of the war, and in the same manner as his bomber books, outlines the forces, equipment and tactics, with accounts from both sides.
Nicholas Montserrat's classic autobiographical novel "The Cruel Sea" is also good for everyday life, and the feelings of the corvette crews (or, at least, their officers).
LW -
Message 4
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 18th May 2009
As to your questions:
Radar was vital, because it prevented the U-boats attacking while surfaced (when they could move faster) and thus reduced the effectiveness of attacks. Airborne radar meant surfaced U-boats could be more easily detected and attacked, particularly in transit to and from operational areas.
Doenitz did not go to sea, but then none of the submarine Admirals on either side did. The submarine war did not lend itself to Flag Officer command afloat. For that matter, Admiral Max Horton, CinC Western Approaches, did not take his flag to sea, either (and saw the peerages go to his battleship contemporaries in the Victory Honours list).
I think Doenitz, like Harris, accepted the casualties because he would rather his gallant youndg men die in their hundreds than the civilian they were fighting for die in their thousands. The U-Boat campaign was Germany's equivalent of the Combined Bomber Offensive.
LW -
Message 5
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 18th May 2009
Rayner's "Escort" is another good first-hand account, and the relevant chapters of "The War at Sea" shouldn't be neglected. I'd also recommend Dan van der Vat's "Walker RN", and, in fiction, Forester's "The Good Shepherd" and Fullerton's "The Torch Bearers", plus Montserrat's "Three Corvettes".
There's also a fair bit in Lund & Ludlam's "Trawlers go to war" that would repay a reading. -
Message 6
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Tuesday, 19th May 2009
The key technological development was narrow-band radar, which could spot a sub's conning tower. This was made possible by the cavity magnetron, an electronic component as important and revolutionary as the transistor and microprocessor, developed with UK govt money at Birmingham University and then given to the Americans along with all British nuclear research, which Congress then embargoed as soon as the war was over.
Doenitz's son was an officer on U-Boats and was killed. Doenitz himself, as seen in interview in the 1973 series The World At War, was the model used on Doctor Who for Davros, lord of the Daleks. -
Message 7
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 19th May 2009
Donitz went to sea during WW1, both on surface ships and submarines, so he knew what his men faced.
A senior commander going to combat in a submarine in WW2 was probably considered a bit much. I think to suggest he did not care about casualties is wrong. Most senior cammanders care about casualties. It is a matter of being able to accept them in order to gain an objective.
nitz/early-life-and-career.html -
Message 8
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 19th May 2009
Sorry, that link seems to have gone wrong...Oh well, Google it for yourself I am afraid !
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Message 9
Posted by billy the ball (U2740765) on Tuesday, 19th May 2009
seanG03
I would recommend 'The Fiercest Battle' by Ronald Seth, the story of the battles around convoy ONS 5, which was the turn of the tide in the Battle of the Atlantic.
In this battle Admiral Doenitz called off the three wolfpacks attacking the convoy (some 60 U-boats) due to the losses inflicted by the close escorts, notably the B7 Group commanded by Peter Gretton.
Peter Gretton's own book 'Convoy Escort Commander' is also worth a read as is Donald McIntyre's 'The Battle of the Atlantic', the memoirs of another escort group commander.
On the German side there is 'Sharks and Little Fish' by Wolfgang Ott, the story of a kid on a pre-war herring boat who transfers to the Kriegsmarine at the outset of the war and ends up on a U-boat. -
Message 10
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Tuesday, 19th May 2009
Its a slightly different subject but its such a good book Im going to mention it anyway as Im reading at the moment and found it a profoundly moving book on the subject of naval warfare. (So I apologise in advance to the OP - sorry)
"Death in the Grey wastes"
Its about Jutland,but the book is made up almost entirely of personal accounts,not cold hard technical facts.Its a fascinating read and shows that there is more to naval combat than just the ships themselves and the cold hard facts.
Sorry
Vf -
Message 11
Posted by caveman1944 (U11305692) on Wednesday, 20th May 2009
THere was a good film many years ago called WEstern Approaches. Can't imagine why It's not been seen since.Featured Jack Hawkins whose friend was enemaoured with Hawkins sister in Wallasey, Merseyside. She bites the dust in an air raid.
What do you know of Captain Johnny Walker who oorganised the hunt for U-boats and died in 1944,
thought to be of overwork? A bronze of him now in Liverpool. Look him up. CB,DSO and three bars.
John -
Message 12
Posted by Scarboro (U2806863) on Wednesday, 20th May 2009
You might like "Grey Seas Under" by Farley Mowat. It is the story of an ocean-going salvage tug-boat that worked the North Atlantic in the pre-war and wartime years.
While not specifically focussing on the Battle of the Atlantic, it does provide an excellent picture of the other battle - the battle with the sea, and the lives of the sailors on the North Atlantic.
Farley Mowat writes interesting books.
Regards
Brian -
Message 13
Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
SEAN
An excellent Battle of the Atlantic book from a Canandian angle is CORVETTES OF CANADA, lots of fine photos, personal reminising by all ranks and of course battle action.
SCARBORO
you mention Farley, have you read No Man's a River, the Chip/Dene guide who leaves to get married is my father-in-law (90years young)
A small world indeed
Ian -
Message 14
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
Jurgen Rohwer - Critical Convoy Battles etc. Good place to look for info is at
Another Canadian-oriented book (don't forget for much of the war 48% of the escort effort was Canadian) is James Lamb's The Corvette Navy. -
Message 15
Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
The sinking of the 'Scharnhorst' in December 1943 surely counts as one of the most gripping naval stories of WW2, although a pedant might argue that it was a peripheral action as regards the Battle of the Atlantic because it took place off the North Cape.
Several books have been written about it, including:
'Scharnhorst' by Alf R. Jacobsen, The History Press (2003).
'The Death of the Scharnhorst' by John Winton. -
Message 16
Posted by ambi (U13776277) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
Cpt. Johnny Walker was mentioned quite a bit on a programme/series on the Battle of the Atlantic on one of the freeview channels last week. Stuck in my mind because it was mentioned that Walker had given the general order (on his own initiative) that U-Boat survivors were not to be picked up unless they gave their name and boat number. One of his surviving crewmen remembered letting a very young kriegsmariner drown because he was unable/unwilling to give the required info.
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Message 17
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Thursday, 21st May 2009
If you can find a copy
"Max Horton and the Western Approaches" by Rear Admiral WS Chalmers by is a good read.
Vf
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