Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
War-inspired art.
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 3rd May 2009
Please nominate your favorite example of art on a war theme. (We did poetry recently, so I was realy thinking of paintings or scuplture)
My nomination for painting would be "Last Flight ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ" by Robert Taylor. (Three Lancs return to base from a raid, flying low, gear down, over a late summer East Anglian lanscape, complete with haystack and dogs.)
For sculpture: Royal Artillery Memorial, Hyde Park Corner. -
Message 2
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Sunday, 3rd May 2009
I nominate the sculpture of David. If you look at the piece, note how the dimension of war is ever so settled, expressed by a barely noticeable sling on David's shoulder.
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Message 3
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Sunday, 3rd May 2009
Presumably you mean the one in Florence. There is a story that the City Fathers objected to the fact that David was shown naked to which Michelangelo (always appreciative of the fine male figure) was said to have replied:
"Do they believe the shoe is nobler than the foot?"
I nominate, if only for its topicality today, Goya's "The Third of May 1808: The Execution of the Defenders of Madrid" followed by another famous Spanish piece, Picasso's "Guernica". As far as British artists are concerned anything by Paul Nash from both WWI and WWII, especially "Ypres Salient at Night" (from WWI)and "Totes Meer" (from WWII).
In statuary I propose the Crimean War Memorial in Waterloo Place, London, cast like the VCs, from captured Russian guns at Sevastopol, flanked, since 1914, by statues of Florence Nightingale and Sidney Herbert. A mention might also be made for the statue of Edith Cavell in St Martin's Place, London, opposite the National Portrait Gallery which replaced a statue of Generall Gordon (of Khartoum fame or infamy) which now resides outside his alma mater, Wellington College.
However perhaps the most aesthetic and purposely instructive (in more ways than one) of all war memorials is perhaps All Souls College, Oxford dedicated to the dead of the Hundred Years' Wars. -
Message 4
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 3rd May 2009
Suv., Allan
Thanks both.
Excellent suggestions. I had forgotten that David is depicted just before doing battle with Goliath, so thus qualifies as βwar-inspiredβ.
Allan: Goya has stunning power and 3rd May is one of his best. The under-lighting adds to the drama.
I never quite understood the figure of the priest, two persons to the right of the current victim (his right). Is he hearing confession/giving absolution, or is he to be a victim himself?
The firing squad seem not to trust their marksmanship, since they are virtually touching the man they are about to shoot, but their stolid workmanlike concentration on the task of killing is wonderfully contrasted by the desperate humanity of our imminent victim. -
Message 5
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Monday, 4th May 2009
Guernica.
Some one had to say it. -
Message 6
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 4th May 2009
I mentioned it above if you care to read my message.
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Message 7
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
And so you did.
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Message 8
Posted by delrick53 (U13797078) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
Hello U3280211,
Don't know about my favourite yet, but the very worst must be the hideous murals on hundreds of gable-ends across Northern Ireland.
Comparing the Maze Prison to Belsen ?
Triumphalist Sectarianism ?
Gerry Adams is like Nelson Mandela ?
And so on.
Artistically the Loyalist ones are the worst, as their terrorists seem to have banana-shaped arms that sprout from mid torso rather than the shoulder, and their legs are often back-to-front.
I suppose they are colourful. -
Message 9
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
cant remember the title - wish i could - but the cover was an awesome portrait of a young marine with the thousand yard stare !!
summed it all up a bit better than "Your country needs you " lol
excellent war /anti war book
st -
Message 10
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
This is not to shaby, actually:
Anybody wants to guess who the character is? -
Message 11
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
Well, given the moustache, its bound to be one of the following:-
General Melchett, Uncle Joe or General Haig.
Nice find Suv.
Got access to any more heroic Soviet art of the 40's? Some of it is actually quite good. -
Message 12
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
Pilot General Melchett, Uncle Joe or General HaigΒ Have you ever heard of Semen Budyonny, the 1st Red Cavalry Army Commander? It's supposed to be him. Next time we engage in the tussle about WWII or what predated it, I'll use this kind as evidence to support my claims.
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Message 13
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
Greetings Delrick.
Re:Gable art.
Artistically the Loyalist ones are the worstΒ
You are right, and I could never figure out why until you pointed out the UVF failure in both perspective and proportion:-
banana-shaped arms that sprout from mid torso rather than the shoulder, and their legs are often back-to-frontΒ
Some of the Republican work is, imho, actually quite artistic, if one can suspend for a moment the inevitable association between the 'cause' which inspired it and the rather less than artistic 'execution' of the 'praxis' of their ideology, which often involved (if I recall correctly) explosive dismemberment of innocent non-combatants waiting at bus stations, punishment beatings and the odd 9mm in the base of the cranium.
Are there any gable murals (on the often re-fashioned Europa Hotel, perhaps?) of M.Mc Guinness, I.Paisley and G. Adams signing the peace accords? -
Message 14
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
Have you ever heard of Semen Budyonny, the 1st Red Cavalry Army Commander? It's supposed to be him.Β
I have read a little about his exploits but not seen a photo before.
In the 15 minutes since your last post I have done some hectic 'googling' and find that he has given his name to some very fine horses. Now popular in the US it seems.
Solid, powerful and intelligent I would guess?
Talking of things horsey, have you seen that photo (its in Beevor's 'Berlin') of Zhukov taking the victory parade on the very lively grey stallion which had earlier thrown Stalin?
Next time we engage in the tussle about WWII or what predated it, I'll use this kind as evidence to support my claims.Β
In view of our long acquaintance, I'm sure that I can rely on you not to take advantage of a crass error on my part. -
Message 15
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
Stalt.
cant remember the title - wish i could - but the cover was an awesome portrait of a young marine with the thousand yard stare !!Β
Are you thinking of the Vietnam era?
Could it have been an early UK edition of Michael Herr's 'Dispathches'?
The cover of the latest Amazon offering is just dark blue but the early ones had a picture, much as you descibe, I think? -
Message 16
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 5th May 2009
Pilot Talking of things horsey, have you seen that photo (its in Beevor's 'Berlin') of Zhukov taking the victory parade on the very lively grey stallion which had earlier thrown Stalin?Β Funny that you mentioned this story. Suvorov has a couple of chapters devoted to showing that it's a complete bunk designed to obscure the fact that Stalin refused to accept the victory parade under the circumstances - meaning that the results of the war fell way short of his expectations, basically. We'll probably discuss this aspect fairly soon now that you've inspired me.
I'm sure that I can rely on you not to take advantage of a crass error on my part.Β This could easily qualify as one of those 'famous last words.' -
Message 17
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Wednesday, 6th May 2009
La Mitrailleuse, CRW Nevinson
Paths of Glory, CRW Nevinson
Over the Top, John Nash
An Advanced Dressing Station, Henry Tonks
Gassed, John Singer Sargent
Gassed and Wounded, Eric Kennington -
Message 18
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 7th May 2009
Mike A (17)
Superb selection. Thanks.
The Tonks painting was new to me.
I had not realised (until googling your nominations) that "Paths of Glory" was censored during the FWW.
Powerful stuff. -
Message 19
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Thursday, 7th May 2009
One painting that I like, but never have managed to succesfully research (ie find it on the web!), is a black and white plate in a old book about Naval warfare, it's attributed to Norman Wilkinson and it's title seems to be 'German air attack on the Malta Convoy 9-14 August 1942'.
Cannot find the original anywhere, but it looks almost Turneresque with light, smoke, shell splashes and burning ships. -
Message 20
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Thursday, 7th May 2009
I had not realised (until googling your nominations) that "Paths of Glory" was censored during the FWW.Β
Typically, rather than not exhibiting it at all, Nevinson exhibited it covered with brown paper with the word 'censored' written on it. By this stage he had moved from the 'futurism' typical of his early work towards a more realistic style. 'Paths of Glory' was a bit more realistic than the powers-that-be were ready for! -
Message 21
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Thursday, 7th May 2009
I love Paul Nash's artwork.Especially the "Ypres Salient",its abeautiful picture yet shows the grim reality of trench warfare.
He gets my vote.
Vf -
Message 22
Posted by delrick53 (U13797078) on Thursday, 7th May 2009
Evening U3280211,
Your observations are correct.
I've been having a closer look at some examples of the gable-end war art, and it's obvious that the Republican stuff is overtly political, often with a message inscribed next to the image.
'Touts (informers) Will Be Shot'
spoils it a little though, and I couldn't find the small print saying -
'and we don't have to prove it, just suspect it' anywhere.
They also revere their dead more, but in a pseudo-religious cultish way (there must be a name for this).
They can't really 'do' faces, although some of the caricatures are recognisable in a 'Marvel Comics' way.
Loyalists have solved the recognition question. Most of their painted heroes wear balaclavas. Those that don't remind me of my favourite cartoon characters from the 50's, but are more Beano than Marvel ('Plug', 'Lord Snooty', 'Desperate Dan' etc.). Their political message tends to match their intellect :
"UVF For God and Ulster" (followed by something rude about the Pope)
being one of their better attempts. The same message about informers appears, but they tend to spell 'tout' incorrectly, and in one 'Be' was daubed 'Bee'.
The emergence of bendy banana-shaped arms from mid torso does explain one thing - why so many of them drag their knuckles along the ground !
Naturally, neither side makes any reference to the 3,000 plus deaths, or the tens of thousands of maimed, blinded, or other seriously injured they were responsible for. -
Message 23
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Stalt (9)
cant remember the title - wish i could - but the cover was an awesome portrait of a young marine with the thousand yard stare. Β
I think I've tracked your painting down.
Try Tom Lea, "The Two Thousand Yard Stare" which depicts US Marines on Pelelieu Island, Sept. 16th 1944. The original is held by the US Army Center(sic) of Military History.
It is used as the cover of the 1993 Flamingo Modern Classics edition (ISBN 0 586 09115 7) of Norman Mailer's "The Naked and the Dead" (first published 1949).
If you want to see the image, go to Amazon, books.
Type in the title and the picture of said marine is on the second listing for Mailer's masterpiece. -
Message 24
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Greetings Delrick.
Re: NI 'gable end' art.
Can you recommend a website (or other publication) which depicts several of these works in one place?
They (IRA mural artists) also revere their dead more, but in a pseudo-religious cultish way (there must be a name for this).Β
I recognise exactly what you are describing.
In his book "The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness" (Penguin 1973), Erich Fromm talks about the 'necrophilous' attachment some people have to violence and death. He uses the term "Destruction Idolatry" (p 369) to descibe this mindset.
He notes it is common in fascist religious cultures. In Spain, in the civil war, General Millan Astray's rallying cry was "Viva la Muerte" (long live death) and on occasion "Abajo la inteligencia" (down with intelligence).
There are deep and strong fascistic themes in brands of Irish Republicanism.
As you have demonstrated in another thread, the IRA's flirtation with Marxism was often a ludicrous and unconvincing posture. -
Message 25
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Vf
Nash's "Ypres Salient by Night"
Yep, that is a beautiful picture.
While not generally a big fan of the abstract modernism of that period I can see the merits of that particular work. -
Message 26
Posted by delrick53 (U13797078) on Friday, 8th May 2009
'Morning U3280211,
Most of the 1970's murals no longer exist (they were the worst) but there are books devoted to the NI murals. I'm fortunate in that I always had a small camera with me at that time and have a good collection of images.
Things have 'improved' artistically, but the messages are much the same, as can be seen at :
(then use index)
The Cain website used to have a fairly good catalogue, and the Belfast Telegraph has over 200 Troubles related photographs linked to the front page of it's website, and may have some of the older murals listed (it's well worth a look anyway). Obviously, many of the books I have also have relevant images, and that's where you'll find some of the worst (inc. the UVF 'Banana' arms)
As for the more serious side of the thread, I'd also put Nash on the short list, but would suggest :
'Totes Meer' (Dead Sea) and
'We Are Making a New World 1918'
Two World Wars, same message. -
Message 27
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 8th May 2009
Delrick.
Many thanks for those links.
The 'Potato Pickers' mural is my favourite, even if it is only distantly related to the recent 'troubles'.
There is something absurd about a 'portrait' of a man wearing a balaclava...
As a subject it would even tax the limits of Lucien Freud. -
Message 28
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Friday, 15th May 2009
Delrick, I couldn't agree more - Ulster Loyalists can't paint!
There was a mural of Billy Wright (King Rat) painted on a gable wall in Portadown after he was killed. Billy was not exactly Brad Pitt when he was alive, but if he had returned from his eternal reward, he would surely have massacred the artist, and most of his family in revenge!
It has now been replaced (in these enlightened times) with one of George Best, which is, if anything, even worse! -
Message 29
Posted by pc1973 (U13716600) on Monday, 18th May 2009
I like 'Unique forms of Continuity in Space' by Boccioni. Superb bit of sculpture.
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Message 30
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 19th May 2009
'Unique forms of Continuity in Space' by Boccioni. Superb bit of sculpture.Β
It certainly is. The Futurists were always trying to capture speed and power in their art. UFCS does that with knobs on.
Was it inspired by military themes?
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