Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
What happened to sacked commanders?
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Elkstone (U3836042) on Wednesday, 22nd April 2009
What is the usual fate of wartime commanders who were sacked after poor judgements or retreats? Were they demoted? given desk duties? or thrown out of the military?
When Montgomery was brought into North Africa he replaced the British commander who retreated. What happened to him? Or the various commanders Hitler sacked in the field? Were they shot, or sent elsewhere in the eastern front? -
Message 2
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Wednesday, 22nd April 2009
In one American case, Lloyd Fredendall was relieved from II Corps after the Kasserine Pass fiasco and sent home to a training command.
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Message 3
Posted by toffee142 (U12031649) on Wednesday, 22nd April 2009
Field Marshall Sir John French was made a Viscount when he was relieved of his command of the BEF!
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Message 4
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 22nd April 2009
Elkstone
It depended on why they were being sacked. The Services recognised that some people were good in some jobs, but not in others, and experienced officers could not be wasted in wartime. On the other hand, incompetents or people who committed grave sins could be completely removed, services no longer required.
Often commanders were moved to other jobs rather than formally "sacked". Wavell was not sacked, but exchanged jobs with Auchinleck; however, everyone including Wavell knew it was a sacking. Slim, on the other hand, interpreted his transfer to 12th Army from 14th army as a "sacking", complained and engineered Leese's actual sacking instead. People being sacked were often encouraged to retire rather than go through the rigmarole of a Court Martial (which would be needed to remove a non-cooperative miscreant). Probably the most egregious example in WWII is Air Chief Marshal Pierse whose personal and professional misconduct saw him removed as AOC-in-C SE Asia, but who was allowed to go on leave until he had accumulated enough seniority to get a full ACM's pension.
Officers sacked from one post without being appointed to another immediately reverted to their "war substantive" rank and went into a re-employment pool.
The various fortunes of sacked Desert Generals gives a fairly representative picture:
Maj Gen Pete Rees, GOC 10th Indian Division, sacked by Ritchie after disagreeing with Ramsden. returned to India, appointed to raise and train 19th Indian Division, commanded it in action in Burma. Retired 1948, still a Maj General.
Maj Gen Messervy, GOC 7th Armd Div (unusual for an Indian Army officer). Sacked by Auchinleck during Gazala. Returned to a staff job in India. Reappointed to divisional command, then Corps command. Post-War was the first CinC of the Pakistan Army. Retired a full General.
Maj Gen Neil Ritchie, GOC 8th Army. Sacked by Auchinleck during Gazala. Returned to UK. Appointed to command a division, then XII Corps in NW Europe. Post-war was CinC FELF and Head of the Army Mission in Washington. Retired a full General.
General Sir Claude Auchinleck, CinC Middle East. Sacked by Churchill and Alanbrooke. Declined a new command, went on leave pending retirement. Accepted post of CinC India, but held no further operational command. Saw the Indian Army through Partition and Independence. Appointed Field Marshal but declined a peerage.
Lt Gen Corbett, CoS Middle East. Sacked by Alanbrooke. Retired the following year.
Mj Gen "Chink" Dorman-Smith. Deputy CoS Middle East. Sacked on Alanbrooke's instructions. Reverted to Colonel. Appointed to command a brigade in UK and then Italy. Removed from command as not up to the job, not offered further employment, retired as a Colonel. Became an active supporter of the IRA in the 50s.
Maj Gen Richard McCreery, DAFV Middle East. Sacked by Auchinleck. Appointed CoS ME by Alexander. Later held Corps command, finished the war as GOC 8th Army. Held various posts after the war, retired in 1949 as Lt Gen.
Lt Gen Lumsden, GOC X Corps. Sacked by Montgomery. Appointed to Corps command in UK. Promoted acting General and appointed as Churchill's representative to MacArthur. Killed in kamikaze attack 1945 (senior British officer KIA in WWII).
Lt Gen Ramsden, GOC XXX Corps. Sacked by Montgomery. Reverted to Major General. Appointed GOC 3rd Division (Monty's old division) in UK. Sent to command in Sudan (when Monty came back to UK to command 21st Army Group, probably not a coincidence). Retired in 1945 as a Lt Gen.
I haven't looked at the US experience in as much detail, but I believe they were rather harsher about acking and giving second chances (although a US general sacked in 1943/44 didn't have as much time to rehabilitate himself as a Brit sacked in 41/42). Eisenhower worried that they were sacking people too quickly. On occasion he sought advice from Alex, which wouldn't have gone down well with US colleagues had they known at the time.
Sorry, long post, but British command and organisation is a pet subject!
Cheers
LW -
Message 5
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Thursday, 23rd April 2009
And famously didn't the General commanding Arnhem (whose name sacpes me for a moment but was played by Laurence Olivier in A Bridge Too Far) come home after losing half of his command and a major battle and got a knighthood.....
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Message 6
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Thursday, 23rd April 2009
Grand Falcon Railroad,
And famously didn't the General commanding Arnhem (whose name sacpes me for a moment but was played by Laurence Olivier in A Bridge Too Far) come home after losing half of his command and a major battle and got a knighthood....Β
For your future reference,
contains all the movie trivia you'd want to know, such as Laurence Olivier as Dutch Dr. Jan Spaander or Sean Connery as M-G Robert "Roy" Urquhart. -
Message 7
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 23rd April 2009
GFR
The War Office saw it rather that Uruqhart had saved what he could of his command, and maintained a defence much longer than intended. So he was made a Companion of the Order of the Bath. He retained command of 1st Abn Div, and stayed in the Army post-war but was not promoted again (there seems to have been a possibility he would be in 1950/51, but it didn't happen).
As for the other Airborne commanders:
Lt Gen Browning, GOC 1st Abn Corps, wasn't rewarded. He did in fact, lose his Corps, being transferred to be Chief of Staff, South East Asia Command. This was much more in line with his talents as an organiser, and he got a grip of both the HQ and Mountbatten. He was then Military Secretary ( a key appointment)before becoming Princess Elizabeth's Private Secretary.
Brigadier Lathbury resumed command of 1 Para Bde (in fact 4 Para renamed) on escaping across the Rhine. Had a full post-war career, retiring a full General.
Brigadier Hackett (4 Para Bde). Following his escape, reverted to Lieutenant Colonel and became GSO1 (Chief Staff Officer) 6th Armd Div in Italy. Also had a full post-war career and was a possible candidate for CGS. Chose to go out with a bang as CinCBAOR by writing to the Press, in his NATO capacity as COMNORTHAG, criticising deficiencies in his forces. Retired a full General.
Brigadier Hicks (1st Airlanding Brigade). Famously the oldest senior officer in 1st Abn Div, and the only WWI veteran. Retained command of his brigade and retired at the end of the war.
For comparison, Maxwell Taylor (CG 101st Abn) went on through various appointments to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and retired a full General. Gavin was confirmed in command of the 82nd, and promoted to Major General later. Post-war he had various commands and staff jobs, becoming Deputy Chief of Army Staff (following Taylor in that appointment) but then retired, as a Lieutenant General, after one more appointment.
It seems the military systems in both UK and USA had a fairly clear idea of the worth of the various officers.
LW -
Message 8
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Friday, 24th April 2009
"...Or the various commanders Hitler sacked in the field? Were they shot..."
Actually, no. Their individual careers varied a great deal after their removal. Hitler even re-called some of them later on, perhaps realising they had a point in whatever dispute it was that got them removed.
One cammander of the army (my memory fails me as to his name) was removed before the war but insisted on being re-called to active service. He was given his own unit and, for his troubles, was killed in the attack on Poland.
Hitler really only actually shot people for trying to depose him I think. -
Message 9
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Friday, 24th April 2009
Hitler executed those whom he saw as a threat, a pattern he estabklished from the Night of the Long Knives in June 1934 when his predecessor as Chancellor, General von Schleicher, was murdered along with his wife.
Hitler took the opportunity of the July Bomb Plot in 1944 to launch a wholesale purge of the senior officer corps of the Wehrmacht as well as removing the last remnants of the opposition. Rommel was forced to take poison not because he was involved in the plot (as popularly believed in Britain at the time and promoted in the 1951 James Mason film - Rommel had counselled against the plot) but because he had been pencilled in by the plotters as Commander-in Chief of the Armed Forces.
The two most notable generals who were dismissed by Hitler and survived were Von Manstein who was dismissed in March 1944 after telling Hitler to hand back the military direction of the war on the Eastern Front to professional generals (he was also notified of the July Plot and advised against it but, unlike Rommel, his military reputation may have saved him from the ensuing purge) and Von Rundstedt who was dismissed twice, once after the D-Day landings only to be recalled after his replacement as Army Group West commander, Von Kluge, had committed suicide following the failure of the July Plot, and again in March 1945 after urging Hitler to end the war. -
Message 10
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Friday, 24th April 2009
German Officers of all ranks if not retired permanently were placed on the Reserve List pending future/further assignment.
Tim Track,
The officer you mentioned was General Werner von Fritsch, retired before the outbreak of war he was made Honorary Colonel of his old Regiment the "12th Artillery Regiment" and went into action with them in Poland where he was killed in action. It is believed that he deliberately sought death, he received a State Ceremonial funeral. -
Message 11
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Friday, 24th April 2009
Steeler : "...The officer you mentioned was General Werner von Fritsch..."
Yes, that was the one. It is odd to think of highly principled German officers serving Hitler. Sure I will forget the name by next week again though.
Stalin, on the other hand, did 'retire' failed commanders more permanently. He did this even if most military logic would say they had heroically preserved their force. If they gave ground in contradiction to insane orders, they did, from time to time, pay with their lives. -
Message 12
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Friday, 24th April 2009
Allan D,
Field Marshall von Runstedt was actually placed on the 'Fuhrer Reserve' 3 times, the first time was from the 1/12/41-15/3/42 after he had disagred with Hitlers 'hold at all costs' order around Rostov. On the 28th November von Runstedt had ordered a retreat knowing the city could not be held, on the 30th November with the retreat in progress von Runstedt received Hitlers orders, he immediately signaled back thet the order was "madness" and that if Hitler did not rescind the order, he should find somebody else to carry` it out. Gerd von Runstedt was relieved of his command that night. -
Message 13
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 24th April 2009
TimTrack Stalin, on the other hand, did 'retire' failed commanders more permanently. He did this even if most military logic would say they had heroically preserved their force. If they gave ground in contradiction to insane orders, they did, from time to time, pay with their lives.Β Not necessarily. It certainly applies to the Western Front commander Pavlov, who under Wehrmacht attack on June 22, 1941, contradicted insane directives by the Chief of General Staff Zhukov and dealt with the unraveling situation the best he could. Pavlov was consequently scapegoated and executed. But not Zhukov, who was the real point man, of course. Stalin simply demoted Zhukov from heading the General Staff.
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Message 14
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Friday, 24th April 2009
Stalin did bring some commanders back after having sentenced them to a fate worse than death. Marshal Rossokovsky was restored to a field command, after having been arrested in the Red Army purges of 1937 which destroyed many of the most promising members of the officer corps from Marshal Tukhachevsky downwards. He was then tortured and sent to a gulag.
Stalin's reprieve of him in 1941 shows that he at least had second thoughts about his consolidation of personal power at the expense of the best and the brightest in the Red rmy four years previously after Barbarossa was launched although whether he ever truly regretted any decision he took is open to question. -
Message 15
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 24th April 2009
Allan D Army purges of 1937 which destroyed many of the most promising members of the officer corps from Marshal Tukhachevsky downwards. He was then tortured and sent to a gulag. Stalin's reprieve of him in 1941 shows that he at least had second thoughts about his consolidation of personal power at the expense of the best and the brightest in the Red army As we previously discussed this to death, the effect of the purges on the Red Army readiness is greatly exaggerated. Particularly, with regard to the "purged" poster boy Tukhachevsky. His only "military" successes included ruthless suppression of barely armed Kronstadt sailors' mutiny and no less ruthless suppression of the Tambov farmers’ uprising. Both easily amount to war crimes of the worst kind. His major opportunity to distinguish himself as the "best and brightest" as you put it came in 1920, when he led a superior in numbers army on to Warsaw, where he was routed by Pilsudski’s army. Neither did Tukhachevsky distinguish himself as the "great military strategist of the time" as he was fraudilently sold to the world during the so-called Khrushchev's Thaw. Stalin had quite rightly discarded his theories as lunacy and adopted the doctrine developed by Triandafilov and Shaposhnikov instead.
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