Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Q-Ships
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Β
Posted by Old Hermit (U2900766) on Sunday, 19th April 2009
With the piracy thing going on off Somalia, I was discussing with someone what can be done about it and brought up the old example of Q-ships which were used against and in conjunction with German U-Boats during the First World War (and possibly the Second?)
However, when did Q-Ships go out of fashion as a way not only of intercepting enemy merchant vessels but as a way of protecting them? Also, would such ships be effective in combatting piracy these days? (Just so I can win that argument :P) -
Message 2
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 20th April 2009
Q Ships were only of use when U Boats had to surface according to International Law, and then give the ships crew time to get off. Once unrestricted warfare started,they had run their course. Commerce Raiders, that is ships pretending to be merchant ships survived into the first half of the Second World War. To use them against pirates, with the ammount of traffic in that part of the world would not give the ship good odds of coming in contact. Unless you used the Tethered Goat trick. You would have to make the ship so tempting to the pirates that they could not resist it. But that would only work so often. It was one of the reasons Germany ordered her U Boats to sink without surfacing.
-
Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 20th April 2009
There was an action during the Great War, when a German Raider disguised herself to look like a Cunard Ship, only to meet said ship, then serving as a Merchant Cruiser. The action was listed as the ship that fought herself.
-
Message 4
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Monday, 20th April 2009
To deter the poorly organised and relatively lightly armed 'pirates' would not need a fully converted Q ships. All that is required is for a percentage of the merchant ships going through this area to have medium to heavy machine guns placed on them, one either side. There would, of course, be logistical problems, but not every ship would need this to deter the pirates.
To digress a little, I have seen it alleged recently that the reason that Somalis have turned to piracy is because their fishing has been, in effect, piratised by foreign (including European) large fishing fleets. The Somalis, having no state forces to protect themselves, have turned to armed attacks.
Is this true, or a piece of conspiracy theory twaddle ? -
Message 5
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 20th April 2009
Q Ships were only of use when U Boats had to surface according to International Law, and then give the ships crew time to get off. Once unrestricted warfare started,they had run their courseΒ
Thats not strictly true.
There were several episodes where Q ships were torpedoed without warning (in the belief that they were bonafide merchant men).Also it conserved the limited amount of torpedo's a WW1 sub carried.It was wasteful to use a torpedo on a small vessel so they used the deck gun.
If you get the chance look up Gordon Cambell VC.Possibly one the bravest men men I have read about and someone who truly had balls of steel.On more than one occassion he was torpedoed and carried out the rouse of panic with a specially prepared act by the crew,that on one occassion involved a parrot in a cage.When the U-Boat came in for the kill (on the surface) Campbell let rip with everything he had.
On one occassion on the "Dunraven fought for two hours,was torpedoed and had a raging fire on board.Campbell and his crew stayed put,at one point they laid down on deck with a raging fire a deck below them and cordite exploding around them so that they could get the shot.
Another interesting development (Whilst on Churchills watch) was the idea of towing a submerged submarine behind a merchant ship.The idea was that as the U-boat shelled the Merchant ship the hidden sub would torpedo the U-boat.I beleive that it actually worked on one occasion with a "C"class submarine.
As you pointed out,it was the commencement of unrestricted warfare that finally brought down the curtain.
As for modern pirates?not so sure.Although I suspect that a "Phalanx" style gatling gun might put them off!
Vf -
Message 6
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Monday, 20th April 2009
Greetings GrumpyFred,
At a slight tangent. I recall reading many years ago about a raid that was carried out on, I think a German installation, in I think a Norwegian Fjord. The only ship available was a destroyer that the article claimed was still in it's primer (due to a re-fit) The story went that when the ship approached the German defences the guard on duty refused to call his superior officers because they were all sleeping off an evening binge and would not believe that they were being attacked by a pink ship. Have you ever seen this? Is there any truth in it? -
Message 7
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 20th April 2009
Not seen that one, but the story of the pink U S Sub in the film Operation Pettycoat is supposed to be based on a true story.
-
Message 8
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Monday, 20th April 2009
Haven't seen that one Grumps' is it worth watching?
-
Message 9
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 20th April 2009
Anything with Cary Grant and Tony Curtis is always worth a look, but avoid the later version.
-
Message 10
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Tuesday, 21st April 2009
GrumpyFred,
Thanks for that. I presume it's a comedy then. On the question of questionable remakes, is it anything like the travesty that was the recent remake of 'The Lady Killers'? -
Message 11
Posted by MB (U177470) on Tuesday, 21st April 2009
The IMDB entry about the film quotes a couple of real incidents.
-
Message 12
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 21st April 2009
Spruggle, I have never seen the new version of The Lady Killers, nor the other Hollywood remakes of The Italian Job, or O. 11/12/13.
GF -
Message 13
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Tuesday, 21st April 2009
nor the other Hollywood remakes of The Italian Job,Β
Its not a bad film.............
But its not a patch on the original.It just lacks that british feel.
And "Camp Freddie"
And Noel Coward.
And Michael Caine
But apart from that
Its ok.
Vf -
Message 14
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Tuesday, 21st April 2009
JMB,
The IMDB entry about the film quotes a couple of real incidents.Β
Here 'tis; scroll down to the remark on USS Seadragon. -
Message 15
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Wednesday, 22nd April 2009
VirtuaF,
Greetings and thanks for your reply. So, no 'Camp Freddie', No Noel Coward and No Michael 'only blowing the bloody doors off' Caine. I shan't be watching then.
Isn't strange but foreign films never seem to work in another language. I'm thinking 'Les Cage Aux Folles', 'Les Diaboliques', etc. -
Message 16
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Wednesday, 22nd April 2009
Pleasure.
Like I say its not a bad film,I quite enjoyed it.
But.....
Its just not "The Italian Job" so to speak.Yes it has Mini's.Yes it has a good car chase.The story isnt bad either.
Its just that it lacks a sense of humour and the "coolness"
of the original!
Regards Vf -
Message 17
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 22nd April 2009
And I gather nobody says those famous words.
-
Message 18
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Friday, 24th April 2009
Greetings GrumpyFred,
I think the actual words used were, 'You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off' but as I haven't got a copy I'm stranded with the memory. -
Message 19
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 24th April 2009
And the title of one of my short stories about a man who is fed up with the family from hell, and tries to buy a tank on E Bay
-
Message 20
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Cap Trafalgar wasn't really a raider. She was intended to be used as an Armed Merchant Cruiser, but was stuck in South America when the Great War broke out. She was armed (marginally) with the guns of the gunboat SMS Eber. The Cunarder, Carmania, had rigged a dummy funnel to look more like Cap Trafalgar, and Cap Trafalgar had removed her 3rd funnel, which wasn't used for flue gases to look more like a Cunarder, so the two were, in effect, disguised as each other.
WWII raiders - well, the outstanding (and still mysterious) success in battle was the sinking of HMAS Sydeney. -
Message 21
Posted by cmedog47 (U3614178) on Monday, 27th April 2009
Regarding pirates, my newspaper tells me that today is the date of the capture of Derba by US Marines and some mercenaries in the First Barbary War in 1804.
Some of that might do today but I don't think westerners have the stomach for it--someone might get hurt. In any case, I don't think that the US or Britain ought to act to solve the problem for everyone. There has been too much hypocritical moralizing of late by those who climb on pacifist high-horses while enjoying an order enforced by others. Each nation, each shipper can, at this stage at least, protect himself if he just has the gonads to do it.
3 or 4 armed guards equipped with handguns and shotguns for antiboarding fighting and, most importantly, one or two heavy sniper rifles like the .50 Barrett should suffice. Equipment readily available on the civilian US arms market should do nicely if skillfully handled. As soon as the .50 caliber rounds start slamming into the skiff at 2500 yards, the pirates will, if their engine hasn't been disabled, turn around and hunt for an easier target.
We have long known how to stop pirates:
Defend the ships and make it expensive
Destroy the ships that they do capture rather than paying ransom--take the profit out of it.
Kill the pirates that are captured--make it dangerous.
Pillage and destroy the homes and towns that thrive off it--cut off the head of the snake.
Those not willing to fight back are part of the problem. -
Message 22
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 28th April 2009
Some spokesman for sailors (Based in East Africa) complained when the crew of an Italian cruise ship returned fire on the pirates, forcing them to break off. Makes you wonder who's side he is on?
-
Message 23
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Tuesday, 28th April 2009
KurtBronson,
We have long known how to stop pirates:
Defend the ships and make it expensive
Destroy the ships that they do capture rather than paying ransom--take the profit out of it.
Kill the pirates that are captured--make it dangerous.
Pillage and destroy the homes and towns that thrive off it--cut off the head of the snake. Β
I've said it elsewhere but it bears repeating: piracy was never defeated at sea alone. The naval powers of the day ultimately had to protect their shipping lanes by taking the pirates' ports and home countries.
Don't be surprised to see a deployment to northern Somalia in the near future. -
Message 24
Posted by FormerlyOldHermit (U3291242) on Wednesday, 29th April 2009
I would be surprised. Thanks to Hollywood the Americans well remember their last foray into Somalia and I don't think public opinion would likely support such an action.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ iD
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ navigation
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ links
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.