Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Passchendaele, The 3rd Battle of Ypres.
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Β
Posted by Fashionaddict93 (U13917542) on Wednesday, 15th April 2009
Can anyone describe in detail what happened in this battle in 1917 but not too complicated? I'm doing coursework on Haig's tactics and have to write about a page anaylising his tactics (and what happened) at Passchendaele.
Or if you know a website that explains it well that would be good. (: Thank you x -
Message 2
Posted by Parti-NG-ton Blue (U13898629) on Wednesday, 15th April 2009
Surely that would be cheating.
-
Message 3
Posted by Fashionaddict93 (U13917542) on Wednesday, 15th April 2009
and also at the moment I'm a little confused about the Messines Ridge. What's this got to do with Passchendaele?
Also, by this stage in the war the British Army was intergrated with the BEF, Volunteers and people from Conscription, would this have made orders and communication different to the battle of the somme when it was mainly only the kitchener's army?
Thanks again (: x -
Message 4
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Wednesday, 15th April 2009
The language of the Kiwi sappers at the Messines ridge was not generally understood by the General Haig who, himself, had a broad Scottish accent.
Haig issued the famous but strict order that:
"In the interests of animal welfare. Under noo circumstances whatsooever should any pigs be used when laundry is affixed to the Siegfried Line." -
Message 5
Posted by Fashionaddict93 (U13917542) on Wednesday, 15th April 2009
oh and it's not cheating. Because i won't be copying it - i'll only be learning from it. Plus I've already written it it's just my teacher says it's rather vague and needs more detail but I'm confused with the events and geography. x
-
Message 6
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 15th April 2009
Fashionaddict
Try this link - he was trying for.
Mind you, your teacher will undoubtedly know this one, so if you want more points, you'll have to research some more sites. Amazing thing, Google.
Messines was an example of a a well-prepared battle for limited objectives, which was a complete success. It has been argued Haig should have used that as a model for the Third Ypres campaign, rather than the wider gains he tried for.
LW -
Message 7
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Thursday, 16th April 2009
Been a while since I read up on this. About as much as I can recall is - good initial progress, heavy casualties, advance bogged down by unseasonably heavy rain causing a mudbath, eventually packed up for winter.
For a proper explanation, try and get hold of Lyn MacDonald's "They Called It Passchendaele".
Or try wikipedia:
Cheers, Mike -
Message 8
Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Thursday, 16th April 2009
Interesting points to keep in mind.
a) The Winter of 1916/17 was a particularly severe one. There were blizzards and snowfall, even at Easter in April 1917.
b)Passchendaele was in the European country known as Belgium. A low lying, rather flat land that probably has more dykes than is good for it. See also, the Battle of the Yser, Oct/Nov 1914.
c)In Russia, the Czar having abdicated, had passed the seat of power over to his brother...unfortunatley, The duma did'nt really agree with this, and suggested that each town and village should have its own Soviet. There were also suggestions that each Army barracks should have their own Soviet. The idea being that each regiment would vote amongst themselves for members to lead them. At a time of war, this merely caused chaos within the Russian army.
d) The USA, had finally decided to ignore the Munroe doctrine, and declared herself ready to take up arms on a foreign soil. Namely Europe, on behalf of the Allied cause.
e) Despite some successes to Nevilles campaign in early 1917, the French army soon became dispondent at the same old way, that things were going, and decided to mutiny. Fortunatley, the Germans didnt notice anything different about the French, so missed a glorious opportunity of probably winning the war, there and then. At this time, the British Army, were probably the only effective army still fighting the war on the Western Front. -
Message 9
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Thursday, 16th April 2009
Just an appendix to what has been written before. The French were close to mutiny having suffered casualties nearing 1,000,000. The significance of Messines was that it was located on a long low ridge. Low but enough to give the occupiers(at this time the Germans) a commanding view over the battleground(a most important advantage in the days before satelite spyware). The highest part was called Hill 60 and the British forces had begun to dig a long tunnel some 200 yards behind the the Allied front line with the object of laying huge charges of explosives (mines) as they had at Vimy Ridge. Rival German tunnellers were also engaged the this and it led to underground fights. The mines were eventually fired causing huge craters(some can still be seen)but unfortunately the initial success was not followed up. If you have time then read 'War underground' by Alexander Barrie. Fascinating Stuff!
-
Message 10
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Thursday, 16th April 2009
Quite apart from the high casualities, some historians have claimed that poor pay and lack of leave sapped French morale to the point of mutiny. Some infantrymen had had barely a day's leave in years.
I never cease to be amazed that the Germans did not discover the mutiny. -
Message 11
Posted by toffee142 (U12031649) on Thursday, 16th April 2009
Hi Fashionaddict93,
If you have time try to find this book, it's brilliant - Prior, Robin & Wilson, Trevor. Passchendaele: the untold story, New Haven and London, Yale University Press 1996.
Gives excellent detail, well written and understandable, and should fill in all your gaps,plus it will look good in any bibliography! -
Message 12
Posted by Spruggles (U13892773) on Friday, 17th April 2009
Mike Alexander,
Absolutely. One of the best accounts of Verdun is by Georges Blond, I think it's well out of print now but I recall the tale of a French officer, who, when his men ran out of ammunition he ordered back to collect more. He was shot for retreating and the firing squad was made up of his own men whom he had helped to save from certain death. Vive la France! -
Message 13
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Friday, 17th April 2009
Friday. 17th April, 2009. 12:29BST
Re. 'Fashionaddict93'
NB. Adding my penny's worth; it should be noted that the name (word): 'Passchendale' was shortened to Passendale (or indeed; pass_end_ ale) by a number of people I met in childhood (during the late 1960's). One of them noted that; 'the beer should be passed down to the end of the bar or indeed the line...' In which case the glasses that were left undrunk on the bar top would have told their own story.
For the record; I would be interested to know where the historic brewery was in the town of YPRES during the 'medieval period'. I was told it lay outside the town; towards the ridge where the so called: 'Third Battle of Ypres' took place...
ps. someone else in my childhood said that they were fighting to reach the bar top; as might have been said during the classic film sequence (with the actor John Mills amongst others); in 'Ice Cold from Alex': albeit from another war.
As for the classic phrase; 'Set 'um up Joe'. Who knows? -
Message 14
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Saturday, 18th April 2009
Saturday. 18th April, 2009. 11:04BST
Re. 'Fashionaddict93'
NB. There is another way to break down the spelling of 'Passchendaelle' as opposed to 'Passchendale' or indeed 'Passendale'. Try quoting; 'Pass_chen_da_elle'.
What was a 'she - wolf' or indeed 'a wolf in sheep's clothing' to a 'medieval mind' or indeed to a 'clothier'?
ps. note the derivation of the word(name) 'Passenchendaelle' and you might begin to understand not YPRES but KURSK. The 'salient' in the history of WARFARE is 'seek and ye shall find'; not necessarily 'enlightenment' but DEATH. -
Message 15
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Saturday, 18th April 2009
Saturday. 18th April, 2009. 11:18BST
Re. 'Fashionaddict93'
NB. As for KURSK (Russia / 1943) note that the real reason for the 'salient' was the existing fuel tap (the implied 'fuel BASE') and the associated railway junction to SMOLENSK...
ps. When you read Russian History; think: 'WAR and PEACE'.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ iD
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ navigation
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ links
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.