Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
HMS Prince of Wales torpedo damage.
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Sunday, 5th April 2009
I dont know if anybody would be interested in this but I thought I would post these links anyway.It would appear that HMS Prince of Wales suffered an even more catastrophic damage in her stern than was first thought when she was torpedoed off Kuantan.Bad luck or poor design is a matter of opinion!
Hope somebody finds them of interest.I found them fascinating especially as Im reading Battleship:The Sinking Of Prince of Wales And Repulse,as it ties in very nicely (and is a great book!)
Vf
The links:
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Message 2
Posted by aussiebrit (U13851320) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Thanks for links to the Prince of Wales & Repulse.
It was very fascinating to read about the dive carried out in 2007.
The number of torpedo strikes that the Japanese made on both ships proved that the IJN was a well trained fighting force, even though both ships were able to steam and fight at full speed and fight of many of the attacks, they were eventually overwhelmed by a force that was well trained and led.
The main failure was there was no aircover available at the time the ships were fighting for there survival, mainly bad cooperation between the RAF at Singapore and Admiral Tom Phillips -
Message 3
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 6th April 2009
No probs, Aussiebrit
I agree its a fascinating read.I think its pretty well known that Prince of Wales took a hit in the stern and that it was believed that the damage was caused by a propellor gouging out the hull.Now it would seem that the propellor shaft pretty much disentergrated in its shaft tunnel (a tunnel wide enough for 3 men to walk down according to Middlebrook and Mahoney,authors of "Battleship")wreaking absolute havoc.What I also found interesting was the fact that the divers found many of the deck hatches open in the stern.Now obviously some may have been used as means of escape,but consider this : the KGV's were considered to be poorly ventilated vessels and indeed the there are reports that this had a negative effect on the crews in intense heat.Did this lead to hatches (which surely should have been closed) being left open?
The other interesting "what if" is had a japanese aircraft not dropped a flare on the 9th December 1941 their was a very good chance that Admiral Phillips would have met Admiral Ozawa and his 6 cruisers.Both Admirals saw the flare(it was that close),both admirals reversed their course (Japanese to the north,British to the south).I doubt it would have changed the fate of Force Z in the long rn,but it would have been interesting to see what effect (if any ) it would have on the Japanese offensive.
Vf -
Message 4
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 6th April 2009
VF,
Good links.
I think its pretty well known that Prince of Wales took a hit in the stern and that it was believed that the damage was caused by a propellor gouging out the hull.Β
Yes, that's what it says in Richard Hough's book "The Hunting of Force Z".Two simultaneous strikes astern crippling the rudder and propellers,causing a loss of speed of 10 knots and a 13 degree list to port.Hough just says the turbines ran themselves to destruction,and was unaware of the seriousness of the damage uncovered by the new dives.This in the first attack.
Repulse did better than the flagship,Jacky Fisher's ships were built for speed, and Captain Tennant dodged torpedo after torpedo until Repulse was attacked from all points at once.
I agree with Aussiebrit, the Japanese crews were well trained and well equipped,they could drop their type 91 torpedoes from 500ft at full speed.
The other interesting "what if" is had a japanese aircraft not dropped a flare on the 9th December 1941 their was a very good chance that Admiral Phillips would have met Admiral Ozawa and his 6 cruisers.Both Admirals saw the flare(it was that close),both admirals reversed their course (Japanese to the north,British to the south).I doubt it would have changed the fate of Force Z in the long rn,but it would have been interesting to see what effect (if any ) it would have on the Japanese offensive.Β
Hmm,tough call.A night action at Matapan or Esperance ranges,5-7,000 yards, nobody is going to miss. Not the British gunners or the Japanese torpedomen,14 and 15 inch guns against Long Lances.At a rough guess 5 or 6 major units sunk from both sides.
Trike -
Message 5
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Hi Trike,
Glad you enjoyed the links,I thought they were facinating.
The Hunting of Force Z".Two simultaneous strikes astern crippling the rudder and propellers,causing a loss of speed of 10 knots and a 13 degree list to port.Hough just says the turbines ran themselves to destruction,and was unaware of the seriousness of the damage uncovered by the new divesΒ
Looking at the actual pictures of the wreck,its not suprising she took on such a list.In Middlebrooks book (Battleship:The loss of the Prince of Wales and Repulse they reckon that as a result of that damage she had taken on 2400 tons of water in just 4 minutes and a figure of 13000 tons being shipped later on (this includes Id imagine counter flooding).Thats a phenomenal figure with the majority of the damage from the initial hit.
Repulse did better than the flagship,Jacky Fisher's ships were built for speed, and Captain Tennant dodged torpedo after torpedo until Repulse was attacked from all points at once.Β
For me, Tennant was a bit of a hero (having already done sterling service at Dunkirk).His handling of HMS Repulse was superb,considering she was 26 years old with really poor AA protection.The one thing she did have over PoW was that she had a predominantly pre war, experienced crew.Tennant did as much as he could with the cards he was dealt.And truth be told she had (up to that point) put in a performance that belied the old girls age.
I agree with Aussiebrit, the Japanese crews were well trained and well equipped,they could drop their type 91 torpedoes from 500ft at full speed.Β
Fully agree,the Japanese pilots were superb and considering some of the atrocities that happened later in Malaya,chivalrous.There was no machine gunning of survivors in the water,or disruption of the rescue.
Hmm,tough call.A night action at Matapan or Esperance ranges,5-7,000 yards, nobody is going to miss. Not the British gunners or the Japanese torpedomen,14 and 15 inch guns against Long Lances.At a rough guess 5 or 6 major units sunk from both sides.Β
But PoW I beleive has RADAR so it adds a bit of spice to scenario.The Japanese were extremely concerned about this and the capability of the PoW.In retrospect depending of your view of the sinking of PoW and the damage she recieved ,they (japanese) over estimated her effectiveness.But I take your point on the torpedoes!
Regards
Vf -
Message 6
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Evening VF,
The one thing she did have over PoW was that she had a predominantly pre war, experienced crew.Tennant did as much as he could with the cards he was dealt.And truth be told she had (up to that point) put in a performance that belied the old girls age.Β
Good point. It's arguable if PoW's crew were fully ready. She had been rushed out for the Bismarck action with civilian contractors still aboard. Then laid up with damage, then sent to the Arcadia conference before going to Singapore. I'm not sure how much battle practice her crew had received.
Yes she had Radar,however I wouldn't under estimate the Japanese Navy's ability at night fighting. Still think it's to tough to call.
Best wishes
Trike. -
Message 7
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Newfoundland Conference not Arcadia.
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Message 8
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Yes she had Radar,however I wouldn't under estimate the Japanese Navy's ability at night fighting.Β
Definetly not!I suppose that I was pondering wether PoW could get accurate fire in before the Japanese were aware of their precence.I take your point,look at The Battle of Savo Island and
Tassafaronga,they certainly knew there stuff.
Good point. It's arguable if PoW's crew were fully ready. She had been rushed out for the Bismarck action with civilian contractors still aboard. Then laid up with damage, then sent to the Arcadia conference before going to Singapore. I'm not sure how much battle practice her crew had received.Β
She was a bit of a hoodoo ship really,she had already had several accidents.She suffered a near miss when fitting out when a bomb fell between her and the dock wall.She ran aground on a sandbank after commissioning.She went to Rosyth to finish fitting out and whilst there a "pom pom" fired twice injuring a dockyard worker.She had 3 fires in the shell room of "B" turret and several men had falls.If anyship in the RN would be unlucky enough to suffer a unlucky hit in the stern it was HMS Prince of Wales.
Still she was considered the best we had got.
Regards
Vf -
Message 9
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 6th April 2009
VF,
Slightly of point,since we're considering alternatives, a squadron of the big T-Class submarines might have been a better choice.They were built with a war in the Pacific/Indian Oceans in mind.
Regards
Trike
Jinxed ships, anyone know any others. -
Message 10
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Slightly of point,since we're considering alternatives, a squadron of the big T-Class submarines might have been a better choice.They were built with a war in the Pacific/Indian Oceans in mindΒ
Given the state of Japanese ASW,thats an interesting idea.
Jinxed ships, anyone know any othersΒ
Not a ship but a name "Blucher" both in WW1 and WW2 -
Message 11
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Not a ship but a name "Blucher" both in WW1 and WW2Β
Good call VF
Trike. -
Message 12
Posted by Old Hermit (U2900766) on Tuesday, 7th April 2009
Going with names, it makes you wonder why the RN have named one of their new carriers after the PoW.
On "cursed" ships though, there are those stories of a U-Boat during the second world war but I forget the name of it. An officer apparently died on it before it left for its maiden voyage and it was plagued with problems before finally being sunk.
Plus there was the HMS Thetis, a T-Boat which sank during trials, was salvaged and renamed before being sunk in the Mediterranean. -
Message 13
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Tuesday, 7th April 2009
Going with names, it makes you wonder why the RN have named one of their new carriers after the PoW.Β
I agree,I think its a crap name for a premiere unit! I would much rather have seen "Eagle" or "Hermes",something with a bit of history.Heck,why not Warspite!Why not celebrate the "Queen Elizabeth" class battleships by calling one of the new "Queen Elizabeth" carriers after one of them. Mind you,if they called it Warspite there is always the chance that she will have "personality" and a penchant for unexpected course changes.
Plus there was the HMS Thetis, a T-Boat which sank during trials, was salvaged and renamed before being sunk in the MediterraneanΒ
She was renamed HMS Thunderbolt I think.Interestingly some new papers have been revealed according to the link that are suggestive that not every thing that could have been done was and that the RN were more concerned about their new sub than the poor sould inside it.
Vf -
Message 14
Posted by chrisramsfan1 (U13940531) on Wednesday, 29th April 2009
Hi there, like you say about the torpedo hit near the port outer prop shaft, bending the shaft, but from the damage done was it not the prop housing which caused the greatest damage. Also prior to the torpedo hit, the hydraulic pumps weren't working properly because of damage from the near missess from the bombers, this was to do with the mountings of the pumps (which knocked out the pumps) was later rectified in the rest of the class.
Again thinking about it the americans as well as the british had underestimated the effectiveness of the long lance torpedo -
Message 15
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Wednesday, 29th April 2009
Hi Chris
It was the first torpedo that did the damage.Have a look at the links and if you can find a copy read "Battleship"by Middlebrook and Mahoney.The resulting flooding from the torpedo knocked out half the electrical plant,which lead to widespread power failure.The amount of water she took on as a result of that first hit was shocking.
Vf -
Message 16
Posted by chrisramsfan1 (U13940531) on Saturday, 9th May 2009
Hi chaps,
Thanks for the name of the book, the programme that was on the telly or rather sky was brill.
Did someone mention about a naval computer game which they were using to simulate Bismarck and Hood, is that game "Fighting Steel". If it is it's a wicked game but you can't play it on vista or xp, it is a downer coz it's a great naval game.
I enjoyed the info about the Hood, to do with shell trajectory, cheers -
Message 17
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Saturday, 9th May 2009
Hi Chris,
Did someone mention about a naval computer game which they were using to simulate Bismarck and Hood, is that game "Fighting Steel". If it is it's a wicked game but you can't play it on vista or xp, it is a downer coz it's a great naval game.Β
I've got it on xp, plays no problem at all once you get the downloads.The original game has a built in problem., it's impossible to change direction until you've got the upgrade. [free on Fighting Steel Project site] -
Message 18
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Friday, 15th May 2009
I've got it on xp, plays no problem at all once you get the downloads.The original game has a built in problem., it's impossible to change direction until you've got the upgrade. [free on Fighting Steel Project site]Β
Trike,how the hell did you get it to work? I tried the patch and zilch! I was luck if I fired one salvo before it crashed!!!
Vf -
Message 19
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Friday, 15th May 2009
Hi VF,
Mine would crash whenever I tried to manouevre a ship,never had problems with the weapons.After checking the FSP forums, I found this problem is endemic to the game. The way it was sorted was first to install the game to the hard-drive then go to the FSP site for the unofficial but agreed upgrades;
download version 10.43 and that cured it.Also gives more features,radar contacts and extra ships[the graphics for these are not as good as the originals]The only problem now is that the game won't close after pressing exit and I've to switch the computer off completely to stop it.
Hope this helps.
Trike
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