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Traitors or Oportunists?
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Parti-NG-ton Blue (U13898629) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
I recently watched a programme entitled "The Brits who fought for Hitler".
It was based on the British Free Corps. This was a division on the Waffen SS, made up of volunteer British P.O.W.s. They were recruited by British Facists such as a Thomas Cooper. They were offered the nice of a soldier and the option to fight on the Eastern Front. A few of these men claim to have signed up not to fight but for the extra rations, beer and women. Others claim to have been threatened or tortured into agreement.
Did these men betray their country or were they making the best of a bad situation? When you see the SS uniform with the Union Flag on it then it does send a funny feeling through you.
Any opinions on this subject? or is there a previous thread I can read? -
Message 2
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Technically, practically and whichever way to see it, these were traitors. They knew their country was attacked by Germans, yet they joined the Germans to fight for them (no matter if on another front). Now, why someone becomes a traitor? Personal profit, whatever that might be.
Nazi collaborators existed all over Europe even in nations whose vast majority fought fiercely against Germans (e.g. Greeks, Serbians, Russians). They joined forces with them not for ideology (Germans considered Slavs as inferior and Greeks as a degenerate mix of Greeks with barbarians) mostly for sorting out local accounts (vendettas etc.), for profiting from black market trade and of course for doing common looting rather than living of any meager salary that Germans would give. In Russia (not referring to anti-Russian non-Russians who found the chance to retaliate) a few Russians joined Nazi ranks to fight off communists that had killed their relatives etc (vendetta-related). A similar trend appeared in Serbia and Greece where the dubious help of British on communists empowered them to the poing of starting a civil war even within the resistance resulting in right wing groups stop hitting Germans and turning against communists: a few of them were so infuriated with the communist treason (cos that was also treason) that joined ranks with Nazis that jumped on the occasion to say "we are fighting here the dangerous communists!".
I can imagine that in the case of British Nazis the 2 first of the above reasons - vendetta and black market would not be the case. However, the 3rd, looting could explain a lot. Certainly they had to share some ideological background (pan-germanism related to anglosaxons, superior tribes etc.) but that was not enough for them to go there, afterall there were people in Britain with such ideas but they never betrayed their country or even if they though positevely of Germans, they would not bother to go there.
Thus we are mostly talking about the "mercenary" effect: people jump in for the profit. Why do all these talibanomuslims (from whenever) go fight around the world? For religion you think? For ideology? Well that is just an initial pretext. Do you see them praying or trying to be just, human and clement in war like religion or ideology would demand from them? No! These are people usually losers in their own society, or people too bored with their lifes that "need strong experiences". In other words, they are there for the looting and the raping. War permits them to do things they would not dare do in their own societies.
For those traitors (taking not into accunt ideology here) the relative law and order of the British army would not give them freedom to do things they would like to do. Being part of Nazi militia in a distant eastern front gave them much more freedom - one the one hand, they were not entrusted the best of material and they were not used in the forefront (thus safer), on the other they were a bit less controlled and thus could act as they liked (loot, rape). That does not mean that most deranged people of Britain went there but then that does not mean that most Nazi-sympathisers of Britain went or would think of going there... you certainly had both of these types but the majority of them were both Nazi-sympathisers & deranged personalities. -
Message 3
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Depending on who you read the British Free Corps never rose to much more than a handful of men. Or was of company size. Given the numbers of British POW's the Germans were holding its a fairly pitiful effort.
At the end of the war they were, bar a few who were either executed or not caught, all sentenced to long terms in prison and told to keep their mouths shut on release. I belive the british records are still classified, so a lot of the research on them is pretty much guess work. Either way they were not a descicive factor and only proved to be of minimal propoganda use. -
Message 4
Posted by Parti-NG-ton Blue (U13898629) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
They amounted to at most around 50 soldiers in total.
They were in no doubt used for propaganda and never sent to fight. They did sign up though knowing the intention was for them to fight. Even if they knew they wouldn't fight volunteering to be a part of the Nazi propaganda machine would still be treason though, would it not?
In the same way that William Joyce was a traitor. -
Message 5
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
To complete my brief analysis, in the group of deranged you should not add only the mentally unstable, the over-violent, the looters and the rapists and child-molesters that in war time hold parties (not that normal men do not rape in war - but rapists will be the first to do so, they will search and hunt to do so)... There is another category which is the men suffering of complexes of inferiority and of complexes of superiority : both of them enjoy the special attention given to them and Nazi propaganda of the style "look! even british people are with us because they know our scope is just!", really flattered them.
It goes without saying that most of these traitors if they had been sent in the forefront of the Russian campaign they would flee, no traitor betrays to be found in the situation that he wants to avoid (for others, the hardships of war, for these ones here the un-importance of the common soldier fed in battle)... -
Message 6
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Friday, 3rd April 2009
Waffen -SS sources state that 70 men served with the BFC, they were assigned to the 11.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division 'Nordland'. On March 22, 1945 the 11.SS-Pz.Gr.Div Nordland was in the process of refitting and was sent to regroup at Schwedt-Angermunde. It was there that the BFC joined the 11.SS-Pz.Aufklärungs-Abteilung under the command of SS-Sturmbannführer Rudolf Saalbach. Half of the Britons were attached to the 1.Kompanie of the Aufklärungs-Abteilung in Schoenberg, Brandenburg, just north of Berlin, and the others were attached near Angermunde to the newly deployed 3.Kompanie - the Schwedenzug (Swedish Platoon) under the command of SS-Hauptsturmführer Hans-Gosta Pehrsson. With the last battle on the Oder on April 16, 1945, Nordland was put back into action to halt the Soviet offensive. At the last minute, before OKW ordered their re-deployment into the Berlin sector, the divisional commander SS-Gruppenführer Ziegler decided to leave the Britons in Angermunde camp while Nordland headed toward Berlin. There is a lot of debate as to wether any of the BFC members saw action in Berlin, some sources say yes, whilst others say no.
What is known is that at least a dozen other British/Commonwealth citizens served in the German Armed Forces(Wehrmacht) including
1st SS Pz Div 'Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler'
Hiwi James Conen
Hiwi William Celliers (South African)
Their story is told in the book, "Gefaehrten Unser Jugend; Die Flak-Abteilung Der Leibstandarte" which gives a detailed account of their experiances.
SS-PK Standarte "Kurt Eggers"
SS-Untersturmführer Railton Freeman
Roy Walter Purdy (interpreter)
SS Medical Department
Doctor Patrick O´Neill (Irish)
Azad Hind (Free Indian Legion)
Sonderführer Frank Becker (interpreter)
SS-Jagdverbande "Mitte"
SS-Unterscharführer James Brady (Irish)
SS-Mann Frank Stringer (Irish)
Propaganda Department München
SS-Sturmbannführer Vivian Stranders
Unit unknown
SS-Hauptsturmführer Douglas Berneville-Claye
3rd SS Pz Div 'Totenkopf'
Unterscharfuhrer Thomas Heller Cooper
And finally,
George Bruyninckx an Englishman born in Hull on the 27th March 1917, to Belgian parents. He Moved to Flanders before the war and joined the Belgian REX party under Leon Degrelle. One of the first members of the Legion Flandern, he fought on the Leningrad front, where he was wounded in January 1942. On the 1st October 1942 he was sent to Bad Tolz for further training and opon completion of the course joined the SS-Freiwillige-Sturmbrigade "Langemarck" where he became an SS-Untersturmführer on 1st September 1943. Serving on the Russian Front at Shitomir he was wounded for the second time and was promoted to SS-Obersturmführer on 30th January 1945. Bruyninckx took over the 1.Kompanie SS-Grenadier Regiment 68, "Langemarck", and fought at the head of a battle group until the end of the war. After the war he settled in France where he died in 2002 I believe. -
Message 7
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Re: Message 2 and 5.
Nikolaos,
there you are again with your sweeping statements.
And note I am not a far-right adept, but I read and study history.
Coincidentally I have studied for these boards the Belgian contribution to the East-Front and the anti-Bolshevism and at least for the Belgian case all what you say is balderdash, but I will handle it in my reply to Steelers.
As for the Belgian case I am well informed from my youth on as there was still immediately after the war a lot to do in Belgium about collaboration and repression and in the general public it was a subject of interest for years. Why do you talk always about subjects you obviously don't know about.
Second paragraph:
"a few Russians joined Nazi ranks to fight off the Communists..."
I am not pretending that I know that much from that subject, but Jack from the Ukraine and Suvorovetz will certainly be able to enlighten you about the Russian general Vlasov and the Russians...
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 8
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 4th April 2009
Re: Message 6.
Steelers,
we have already discussed that subject of the British volunteers on these boards and as I know you I think that you perhaps took also part in that discussion. It was immediately stated that there were that few as you give in the list.
Although I did already research for these boards about the Belgian collaboration my interest was sparked by the name of George Bruyninckx in your list.
Did some research on internet and stuck yesterday after ten the rest of the evening with new research for for instance the Flemish Legion...I found the same as you about George on the "Axis Forum".
In France and Belgium and also in the Netherlands there were strong anti-Bolshevist movements. I am not sure for the Netherlands, but for Belgium and because of my research for a French forum I read that also in France it was supported by the Roman-Catholic church. I am not so well researched for France, but in Belgium at least it was more the lower clergy, who got engaged in the crusade against Bolshevism, but also many lay politicians were involved. I am not sure but from what I heard the Roman-Catholic hiearchy was perhaps talking about the Bolshevist anti-Christ in their inner circles but officially I think there wasn't that much printed. That's a new field of research for me.
But a lot of those, who parted for the East-Front to fight with the Germans, where driven by a real hate for the Bolshevists, misled or not by the leading tendencies of that moment raised during the Interbellum (between the wars).
In Belgium as so many things they were divided between Flemings and Walloons:
At the end of the war all Belgians fought together under I think Léon Degrelle, who escaped to Spain in an I think SS aeroplane.
BTW. By wading through the net it is amazing (learnt that word from Nik) what new-right-wing stuff one encounters. As in Dutch, English and French.
I was also told by an insider, whose father was in "it" that all the families in Belgium of "the time" form a kind of "brotherhood" to protect each other and seek for jobs for the unlucky ones having lost their jobs and money by the post-war "repression". And there are, again according to my source, some wealthy ones in the group.
Already half past midnight overhere. The rest will for tomorrow.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 9
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Monday, 6th April 2009
Hi Paul,
I made my posting above in a hurry so didn't check any earlier discussions or If I'd contributed.
As you say in the 20 & 30's there were a lot of right wing anti-communist organisations across Europe which is reflected in nearly all of the units made up of foreign volunteers that fought for Germany, indeed many of the Estonian & Latvian volunteers were fighting the Russians into the mid 1950's.
You'll find that the Flemings and Walloons were kept in their seperate Brigades/divisions right up to the end of the war when the remnants(of battalion strength) were mixed together with Dutch and German troops.
I have amongst my books several very good books regarding the Belgians:
The Last Knight of Flanders: Remy Schrijnen and his SS-Legion "Flandern"/Sturmbrigade "Langemarck" Comrades on the eastern Front 1941-1945 by Allen Brandt
For Rex and for Belgium: Leon Degrelle and Walloon Political & Military Collaboration 1940-45 by Eddy de Bruyne & Marc Rickmenspoel
Campaign in Russia: The Waffen SS in Russia by Leon Degrelle.
I've also got an excellent book on the French Volunteers called For Europe: The French Volunteers of the Waffen SS by Robert Forbes. It covers the military and political history of the French units right from the beggining and the formation of the Milice francaise and the Legion des Voluntaires francais contre le bolchevisme.
I don't know but you may have heard of that one before as it was originally published in France as Pour l'Europe I believe and was only translated into English a couple of years ago. -
Message 10
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 7th April 2009
Hi Paul! Well, you know I respect your opinion and most certainly you do not have to note for me that you are far from being any far-right (I know it, but also generally speaking I am self-acclaimed free-of such complexes thus the last to judge anyone on being this or that based on an isolated statement or impressions). But then while I will not disagree with you telling me that I know much less than other people here (first of all you) on such subjects, I really did not understand if you disagreed partially or completely with my brief analysis. To my eyes people going to fight for other peoples’ onions are either suffering from complexes and need some attention or are losers in their society seeking a way out, or are deranged personalities with tendencies for looting, raping, torturing and killing (the latter very common). And that has been seen in so many conflicts from very ancient times till today (wars in Yugoslavia, Iraq etc.). Even without extensive knowledge on the issue, I am pretty much convinced it applies for those few British fighting for Nazis.
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Message 11
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 9th April 2009
Re: Message 9.
Steelers,
thank you very much for your elaborated reply.
To be honest apart from my youth rememberings I wasn't that much interested in the Waffen-SS, collaboration and resistance until I joined these boards now some six years ago. But due to some posters here as a Gilgamesh (now Urnungal) I did research for the resistance in Belgium and found out in recent historical books how complicated it all was. I did also a lot of research for an Englishman at the EU in Brussels, who attended the boards for a long time. As for instance for, if you are interested, Jean de Sélys Longchamps:
There was in that time a site in French with English and Dutch texts, dedicated to the resistance and by the same token also to the collaboration. I learned a lot from it. But sadly it is now gone and absorbed I think in the Dutch language site "Verzet.org" (resistance.org) but it contains also French language and English language articles if I remember it well. I could this "competent" site also use for many a research. Also and especially for the collaboration. It is perhaps slightly left wing and anti-racist but it is the information that counts.
Also in the Axis-forum I found a lot. In the beginning I was a little bit offended by the "Stahlhelm" (steelhelmet) in the left corner above. But as said about the "Verzet.org" it contains a lot of honest information and I learned a lot from the French David Lehman on these boards about the Tank-weapon, especially the French one. I seems to be an expert in WWII history, especially the French Campaign of 1940. And he writes in a kind of American English.
Thank you also for the links as from Allen Brandt. did a lot of research for him on the net but fund nothing only on the book. Is he American? I found some negative descriptions of the book, but nevertheless as I read it it is an interesting contribution to the knowledge of the Flemish Legion, who fought for the Germans, especially against the "Bolshevists".
About Eddy de Bruyne and Marc Rikmenspoel (note without "c") I found more. Eddy is a Belgian and Marc is an American. And that book, reading the comments seems more honest to me.
I found also the book of Robert Forbes but nothing about the author. It is the only book he has written about that subject and the other books are quite different. As a book for children??? The book seems to be written originally in english and later translated in French.
Steelers, thank you again, your remarks pushed me again to do reserch in the complex situation of the WWII collaboration and resistance in Belgium.
BTW during my research I found two interesting sites:
and that's from Eddy de Bruyne
with links as the "Comete line"
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 12
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 9th April 2009
Addendum to message 11.
Oops and I forgot: I read some years ago due to these messageboards that book of Léon Degrelle. If I remember it well it ended with his escape with the plane crashlanding on a strand in Spain. It was a whole eulogy to his own person, but nevertheless not so far from the reality as I discovered from other reading and although the boasting I learned a lot that I could cross-check in a recent study of the Léopold III question during WWII about Degrelle's early months during the occupation of Belgium.
Cheers, Paul. -
Message 13
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 9th April 2009
Re: Message 10.
Nikolaos,
To my eyes people going to fight for other peoples’ onions are either suffering from complexes and need some attention or are losers in their society seeking a way out, or are deranged personalities with tendencies for looting, raping, torturing and killing (the latter very common).Â
Yes I completely disagree with your analysis.
I am used to your "vivid" language without "nuances" and I have still to answer on your worldwide conspiracy like "clique" of "influential" people, who run the world even arranged the two WWs and the Russian revolution, but this time you have exceeded it all. Have you studied the collaboration in France and in Belgium? You make some self-acclaimed statements without knowing anything or have spoken with witnesses or read books about the events.
Yes they weren't all "deranged" or you have to say that at the "right" side there were also some "deranged" ones. Again I don't want to apologize for them, but I at least have had the decency to study the case as to understand what were the motivations and how they were "misled", if you can use that word in this context.
And yes I agree, that as in every! group there were also adventurers, and some doing it for the "kick".
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 14
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 15th April 2009
Paul again I underline, I am not a conspirologist since I do not present any specific conspiracy of the likes of Egyptian priesthood, the Rosencross & the Illuminati, the Freemasons, the Zionist Jewish, the Wahhabi Muslims or any UFOs playing the "sons of God" like Daineken proposed!!!
What I simply propose is that "standard history" as presented to us is usually if not at most times completely wrong where it tries to explain the root causes of events, thus at best used only for a brief description of events - usually to be deducted by joining the puzzle. Only today I was reading the official Â鶹ԼÅÄ history site where it clearly mentioned about how in 1917 "communist revolutionaires" were accomodated by Switzerland and sent by Germany's action in a "secret" train to Russia to provoke a 2nd revolution since Kerensky's Republican government would not do the trick for Germans. A fact or not? Do I suspect other things behind all that? Yes, especially when the revolutionaries had to pass by the fiscal capitalist paradise of Switzerland - I doubt there was only Germany there but that is a supposition I make, I do not present a full theory here. A fact or not? Well, at the end all I am sayingg is that the whole story just does not sound like any peoples' revolution and saying it was mainly because Russian muzik people were poor or agains WWI becomes extremely naif. The above is not at all about proposing any conspiracy. It is about dissolving any naif beliefs enabling a more correct approach to events.
Considering your objection to my above views on British collaborationists I think we talk about different things. I mentioned all that for these small groups of people from countries like Britain (like today US men going to fight for Afganis or Afganis going to fight for Kosovars and Bosnians prior to US invasion etc.). I did not refer to cases of occupied countries where collaboration was of a different nature. And most certainly a British Nazi was something very different from a French or Norwegian or Croatian Nazi. But refering to British Nazis I mainly remain to my above affirmations that mostly we had to do with such troubled personalities. -
Message 15
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 18th April 2009
Re: Message 14.
Nikolaos,
I have some difficulties with your word "conspirologist". Many use the word I agree and I am ashamed to have used also the word "conspirationalist", while it has a negative connotation and nobody including I seem to understand really the concept of the word if there is any. Did some research on internet, while it seems to be a new word that don't appear in dictionaries. As I saw in the several hunderds of items, not a definition, but if you have to guess, rather a term of abuse and I am nearly sure that most don't have the slightest idea what they want to say with the word. The Germans seem to call such a word: "ein Unwort" (an "unword"). "conspirationalist" for me, as I want to use it, is someone who states theories without supporting it with evidence or at least tracable facts that support his theory.
And if I remember it well, you agreed in a thread here, that you are reading the same sources as we (the others
) but that "you" by your "thinking" and making "combinations" come to other conclusions than "we".
And yes your example here is exactly what I wanted to show.
About your last paragraph we seem to agree, although again you don't prove what you are saying about the British few. For instance the case of the British Belgian (in fact Flemish) man. One of the few British involved in the Waffen-SS proves from the sources that he acted as a lot of people in tha anti-Bolshevist campaign. But yes that was perhaps only a Brit on his identity card, but perhaps an anti-Bolshevist Fleming in his feelings perhaps because his Belgian parents were anti-Communist...
I owe you also a reply on the "collaborator thread".
Nikolaos, if we don't agree always we seem nevertheless to understand each other.
Warm regards from your friend,
Paul.
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