Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
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Message 1.Β
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 2
Posted by peteratwar (U10629558) on Monday, 30th March 2009
This should be enough to start a war all on its own! Even on the 1st paragraph.
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Message 3
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 30th March 2009
Are you here to ask a question or deliver a lecture?
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Message 4
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 30th March 2009
sevenskies For over 6 decades , the people of Palestine were put through successive processes designed to eliminate them and cancel all evidence of identityΒ Speaking of identity, what is your definition of the people of Palestine?
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Message 5
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 30th March 2009
The story of Israel and Palestine is so ironic for both parts of the story:
This is quite known: The first Israelis that set up the state of Israel were mostly Jewish hunted and exterminated by Nazis. In a few years time they became themselves the perpetrators of such crimes.
This is quite unknown: The Palestianians, 20 years earlier than the creation of Israel, had openly celebrated the genocide of Greeks in Minor Asia being proud of their fellow muslims exterminating those infidels. In a few years time, they found themselves in the position of those whose death they had celebrated.
What do we learn from history? That man never learns from past mistakes.
There will be no solution to the problem as it is tied up to the effort of control of the middle east. Has anyone noticed that some 60-70-80% of Arabian oil (I do not know how much, all I know is that US is bying only 5% of its needs from there!) is fed to Europe, yet there is no main pipeline to Europe. Why? Turkey (unstable, almost-at-war with Greece), Syria (described as a rogue state, at war with Israel), Lebanon (civil war), Israel (at war with Palestinians) and so on... make your own judjedment. What is certain is that peace is not in the hands of Israelis or Palestinians... -
Message 6
Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Monday, 30th March 2009
On the subject of Palestinian identity: there was no movement for Palestinian independence until after the establishment of Israel. Palestine was just a backwater of the Ottoman Empire, destined to be split between the emerging Arab states.
So - ironically enough - if Israel had never existed Palestine & its people would now be totally forgotten. -
Message 7
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 30th March 2009
Well it has to be understood that "Palestinian" is a geographical term and not any ethnic term. These people are Arabs belonging to the Arabic tribes intermediate between Syria and Jordan. Ancient Philistines (from where the name comes), do not seem to had been very Semitic (i.e. Arabic), but seemed to had come from the north and possibly with considerable Minoan influence since in the bible the terms Philistine, Cretan and Greek are interchangeable as time passes and refer to the people of modern south Palestine!
At the times after 1945 the natural evolution would had been these lands being partitioned between Syria and Jordan. So we would not even make reference to Palestinians but to Arabs in general. However, in the case of Jewish people creating the state of Israel, what happened was the violent displacement of people, the stealing of their lands and houses, the segregation, the isolation and all the rest we have seen so far. And the problem was aggravated due to the very different birth-rates of the two societies: Palestinians back then were counting hardly 1-2 million people, now they count several million (many of them living outside Palestine being married with neighbouring Arabs etc.).
Had Israelis been more civilised in the beggning they would not had end up in that: Arabs would had to an extend integrated better, they would get on with their lifes, working, living and their birth rates would had been on decline long ago. Now the Israelis are found with the option to wage on permanent war and maintain an extremely racist and segregational state or to adopt a softer approach that theoretically will lead to the inclusion of all Palestinina Arabs as full citizens of either Israel or Palestinian state: either way Israelis face the threat of "birth-rate phase difference" implying that in some decades it will not be them deciding in the area.
But above all, the solution it is not even in the hands of Israelis and far from being in the hands of Palestinians. The whole issue has to do with the geopolitical control of Middle East and that is well above both of them, as I have explained above.
So you know how and why... -
Message 8
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 30th March 2009
E_Nikolaos_E However, in the case of Jewish people creating the state of Israel, what happened was the violent displacement of people, the stealing of their lands and houses, the segregation, the isolation and all the rest we have seen so far.Β Admittedly, this is going into the never-ending dispute about what happened in the post-war Palestine. But, as far as I know, the "violent displacement" and all that did not start until the neighboring Arab states moved their armies into the partitioned part of the former Mandate. If you did not notice, there are Arab members serving in Israeli Knesset as we correspond here. I never heard of any Jewish representatives in Hitler's cabinet, since you're so keen in drawing sweeping parallels.
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Message 9
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Monday, 30th March 2009
Does that mean they're (the Palestinians) doomed to live as discarded people with no identity or recognition from the world community ? Β
No. Palestine is recognised by 96 UN member states.
They will achieve justice in the end because the legitimacy of their case will not go away. Nik has pointed out that demographic factors will also play a major part.
It is Israel that lacks legitimacy. It achieved statehood by terrorism and ethnic cleansing but dislikes being reminded of that fact.
If you doubt that just look at how a minority Jewish area in 1946 (678,000 Jews to 1,269,000 Arabs) became a majority Jewish area in 1948. Did the Palestinians just decide to "go walkabout"? No, they were driven from the land they had lived in for centuries by brutal ethnic cleansing and the mass illegal immigration of European Jews. At Deir Yassin Irgun terror squads massacred 254 Palestinians (many women and children) in April 1948. Not surprisingly many Arabs fled Palestine.
According to Prof Stephen Rose (a Jew and participant in the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ R4 "Moral Maze" programme)
"Israel is a colonial selter society".
That anti-Zionist view is endorsed by Ron David ("Arabs and Israel" 2001) and Noam Chomsky ("The Fateful Triangle". 1999).
The facts are out there but during Bush's pro-Zionist US dominated world they were unfashionable.
Perhaps Obama might try to change that, but it will be a very slow process.
There is no chance of a 'two-state' solution with Netanyahu in chage of Israel, but an Iranian nuclear capacity could break the deadlock in negotiations.
Israel now faces its toughest decision... does it bomb the Iranian nuclear plants (as it did in Syria and Iraq) or does it accept that nuclear proliferation is inevitable and negotiation unavoidable? -
Message 10
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 30th March 2009
They will achieve justice in the end because the legitimacy of their case will not go awayΒ What does this mean? The realization of the HAMAS Charter's stated goal of the complete dustruction of Israel?
The facts are out thereΒ All of these facts are in dispute. The fact that Rose, David and Chomsky have Jewish ancestry does not make their claims any more authentic than the substance of Marx's vile quotes such as 'It is the circumvention of law that makes the religious Jew a religious Jew' and worse. After all, he should know better, since his parents had been converts out of Judaism. Please. -
Message 11
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 12
Posted by sevenskies (U13875542) on Tuesday, 31st March 2009
Who cares about Hamas charter beside you ? , what makes that charter a reference of any value beside you ?. And who would use the word "destruction" unless he's so angry or so fond of selling acoustic agenda ?
The entire matter is so obvious . The legitimacy of Israel has no legal status. All non Palestinian residents on Palestine who came under the cover of the British mandate or after the unlawful declaration of the so-called Israel should leave to where they belong, to their native countries. All measures taken by any Israeli governmenrt are void and they should bear all the cost of the huge changes they've done on the land and people of Palestine.
Not a single Palestinian want to destroy anything, they simply want their confiscated and stolen rights on land and freedom back.
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