Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Dowding's dismissal
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Message 1.Β
Posted by merlin (U10448262) on Saturday, 14th March 2009
Noticed on the bbc history ww2 battle of britain 'potted history' the author asserts that Churchill bearing some resentment over Dowding's letter re: no more fighter squadrons to France - after the 'Battle' was over dismissed him!?
Why would Churchill do that, he who had ridiculed attempts by Sinclair and the Air Ministry to retire him - before the BoB started. Churchill's reply effectively meant that Dowding could stay at Fighter Command unless he was to be promoted above that.
Churchill respected those who stood up to him - provided they were right, that was his still - he encourage arguement and debate.
Sadly, there were others who couldn't accept Dowding being proved right. And it was therefore Dowding & Park who suffered by all the intrigue, at the Air Ministry.
What do others think? -
Message 2
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Saturday, 14th March 2009
There seem to have been a number of reasons, of varying justness.
To ensure enough rotation and renewal at the top,
terms of duty at military commands are limited in time, and Dowding had been about to retire as C-in-C Fighter Command when the war began. It was thought a bad time to change the leadership of this crucial Command, so Dowding stayed on. However, after the Battle of Britain had been won, the time seemed right to make a change, if a change had to be made. Dowding was born in 1882, making him slightly older than most of the British military leaders, although he was only one year younger than Alan Brooke and considerably younger than Churchill himself.
Dowding's position also suffered as a result of the bitter quarrel between his subordinates during the Battle over the role of No.12 group and its 'Big Wing' tactics. The conflict was more or less to be expected, as No.12 Group naturally chafed under being asked to play a supporting role, while No.11 fought a battle for the nation's survival. But Dowding had allowed the rivalry between his subordinates to spin out of control, and even granting that Park and Leigh-Mallory were not the easiest people to handle, it was a significant error. Especially when Leigh-Mallory resorted to political manoeuvres to make his point, Dowding's leadership was undermined.
Last but perhaps not least, Dowding had a somewhat abrasive personality and did not suffer fools gladly. His technical judgement, both as a staff officer and as a commander, was astute. Unfortunately, this was a time when the military where inundated with well-meant but at times rather silly proposals to improve the defence of the nation. One of the people contributing to the flood was Frederick Lindemann, later Lord Cherwell, Churchill's scientific advisor. Dowding was openly dismissive of some of Lindemann's wilder ideas, and quite correct in his assessment -- but Lindemann was not a man who easily admitted an error or forgave an slight. -
Message 3
Posted by merlin (U10448262) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
Agree with you on Lindemann - was he ever right?
Age -
Dowding was due to retire in '39 but Courtney was ill. Though would Courtney have written a letter of caution about more Hurricanes going to France? Yet, when he was 'dismissed' from Fighter Command he was given other duties.
And age didn't stop Brooke-Popham getting the poisioned chalice of Singapore.
Leigh-Mallory
Leigh-Mallory assumed that he had the plum job - defending the Midland from German based bombers, didn't like the group borders being redrawn in 11's favour. He saw the ideas of Bader as a way of getting 'on in the act'.
Perhaps, Dowding should have sacked LM for the lack of cover of 11 Group airfields. But he expected more professionism over personal ambition. Perhaps too, he should have ensured that his commanders new what expected of them in the coming battle - its as if LM didn't know the 'system'.
'Politics'
The fact that when Dowding left Fighter Command Park also went, i.e. the architect and executioner of victory in the Battle were penalised!
The fact that Dowding was never made Marshall of the Royal Air Force, though others of lesser accomplisment were.
For further reading - try Dowding & Churchill, The Dark side of the Battle of Britain, by Jack Dixon. -
Message 4
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Friday, 27th March 2009
Dowding's replacement as head of Fighter Command was not only triggered by his age, but also by the need to have regular rotation at the head of a military organization. Rotation every two to three years is normal, also today. Dowding's four years, five months actually made him the longest-serving commander of any of the RAF's three major fighting commands (Fighter, Bomber and Coastal command), ever. After the Battle of Britain, a clear decision had to be made. The only possible reason not to replace him would have been to keep him as commander for the duration of the war, which is what Sinclair (the Secretary for Air) suggested. Churchill seems to have been instinctively opposed to Dowding's replacement, but gave in to pressure.
It's entirely true that Dowding was rather shabbily treated later. Churchill's decision to send him to the USA to support the British purchasing commission was based on the desire to find a position for an officer who he highly respected, and no doubt to profit from his fame, but it was clearly an unsuitable appointment and resulted in a predictable bad end. However, the options for Dowding's future employment were rather limited: The rule was that one could serve as commander of one of the operational commands only once. Short of making him chief of the air staff, which was unlikely, he could only be given some administrative function, which really did not suit him at all.
Churchill and George VI could not make a man a Marshal of the RAF against the wishes of the RAF and the Air Ministry, although apparently both would have liked to. They had to settle for making him a Baron.
Dowding's attitude to Leigh-Mallory was influenced by his considered opinion that the commander of No.12 Group might have a point --- Big Wing tactics would not be the best option for No.11 Group (not even Leigh-Mallory claimed that they would be) but even Park was willing to admit their value in different tactical conditions. Dowding was cold but not inflexible, and he guardedly endorsed Leigh-Mallory's tactics as appropriate for No.12, just as he supported Park's as appropriate for No.11. But he failed to address the animosity between his subordinates.
Park's career suffered by his association with Dowding, because Dowding had made too many enemies but also because their common spirit and legacy was seen as defensive. They had of course been victors in the defence of Britain, but Sholto Douglas was minded to go on the offensive and Leigh-Mallory suited him better as commander of No.11 group. The suggestion that Park was primarily seen as a good commander in a defensive role is reinforced by his later appointment to defend Malta, as though a mission as any. -
Message 5
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 27th March 2009
no1catman
"The fact that Dowding was never made Marshall of the Royal Air Force, though others of lesser accomplisment were."
This is A J P Taylor's famous dictum, from his introduction to Wright's hysterical little book, and it has always annoyed me.
In 1940, no RAF officer other than Chiefs of the Air Staff had ever been promoted to MRAF. To have promoted Dowding would also have made min even more senior to the new CAS, Portal - Portal would not be eligible to be promoted MRAF himself for another three years. This constraint did not just apply to Dowding; Ludlow-Hewitt, the first AOCinC at Bomber Command and Inspector-General (who had retired without complaint), was also being considered and was turned down for similar reasons.
And who were these MRAFs of "lesser accomplishments"? The only officer appointed MRAf during the war was Portal, and only two others at the war's end - Tedder and Harris. Were the accomplishments of those three, which spanned the whole conflict, really of lesser value than Dowding's single summer? -
Message 6
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 27th March 2009
And Dowding's barony was of particular disctinction, though that has been lost in his general brooding over the insults her perceived.
Dowding was only the second RAF officer to receive a peerage (the first, inevitably, was Trenchard). He was the only commander (as opposed to a Chief of Staff) of any of the three services to receive a peerage during the war and one of only two to receive a peerage for a single campaign (the other being Admiral Tovey). This is singular recognition, not compensation for not being made MRAF.
Sorry, forgot to put that in the original post.
LW -
Message 7
Posted by aussiebrit (U13851320) on Monday, 30th March 2009
G'day Mutatis
I totally agree with your comments.
Dowding should have sacked Leigh Mallory for not being a loyal subordinate and continually going behind Dowdings back .
A further point worth noting is that Park did eventually get his squadrons to operate in pairs whenever it was practicable.
Also worth noting is that the 12 group big wing
led by Douglas Bader had the advantage of being able to assemble outside the main battle zone and then fly into the battle.
I wonder if the big wing would have worked if it was under Park's control ( a different tactical situation) and tried to assemble in the South of England in the midst of the battle, the Luftwaffe fighter pilots in Me 109's.
would have had a field day !!! -
Message 8
Posted by merlin (U10448262) on Friday, 10th April 2009
To Quote John Terraine - The Right of the Line P.220:
"In the case of Dowding, it was not his going, but the manner of it, that spoils the story."
Terraine says that he was informed personally by Sinclair, yet according to Dowding it was first by 'phone, and in contrast to previous times - nothing in writing (according to Jack Dixon).
There was a RAF account of the Battle written shortly afterwards - while Goering got a mention Dowding did not.
Terraine also quotes Sir Maurice Dean P.221
"In the light of hindsight it is clear enough that Dowding should have been given a peerage and made a Marshal. But it is also fair to say that it didn't look like that at the time."
Being a Marshall gives you a seat on the Air Council - and it may be that that is what was to be avoided. It doesn't otherwise give you seniority - if you have retired!
Besides - Dowding's achievements were not just for a 'single summer'! But for the years previous where he reasoned out, formulated, and constructed his 'system'.
Lesser accomplishments - well obviously this is purely a subjective opinion, you are welcome to disagree.
Portal - was chosed to be CAS - perhaps hastily, on the one hand to replace Newall, on the to forstall Dowding getting in! As it was he insisted on having Freeman by his side (who was also more qualified for the post - but he was divorced). Failings - showed lack of leadership - in dealing with Harris, e.g. pathfinders and Pointblank, and total blindspot over the possibilities of a long-range escort fighter.
MRAF 'Sholto' Douglas - if in charge earlier - with his attitude of hitting the enemy after it had hit their target - more likely to have lose the Battle. Strong supporter of the Defiant for Fighter Command - much against Dowdings wishes. And, according to Dixon (re: source I quoted earlier) did not come up with any ideas himself but followed instructions.
Big Wings - the only value, IMO, was the shock for the LW on suddenly seeing them all together. Otherwise - they took too long to form up, climb at the speed of the slowest, and magnified the overclaiming. Neither were they effective - over France - with Leigh-Mallory in control, over Dieppe Broadhurst advocated reverting to pairs of Squadrons (remind you of Park?). -
Message 9
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 14th April 2009
no1catman
I am afraid you are wrong. Being an MRAF does not automatically give you a seat on the Air Council - that depends on what post you hold. Dowding had, in fact, previously held a seat as Air Member for Research and Development, in the '30s.
It does give you seniority, as it is the senior rank in the RAF. Dowding was, in any case, the senior serving officer, by virtue of his length of service as an Air Chief Marshal, and hed been since Ellington stepped down as CAS in 1937. But an MRAF, in common with Admirals of the Fleet and Field Marshals, does not retire; he goes on half-pay but remains in the Service. Such officers continue to have influence, and a tacit right to be consulted on matters relating tot he service, and access to the Prime Minister and even the Monarch.
It was this privilege that Trenchard and Salmond, both MRAFs, had exploited to interfere and bring pressure on Newall to go early and Dowding to be removed.
Maurice Dean, who was a guilty man as far as Dowding was concerned, was being a Whitehall politician with his remark. What he meant was that, in light of subsequently happened, it would have been better to have promoted Dowding to MRAF and given him a barony at the end of 1940, rather than the longdrawn out issue it became. This was what the army had done with Ironside when he was removed from Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Forces to make room for Alan Brooke.
Of course, the barony would give Dowding a voice in the House of Lords, where Trenchard ruled supreme as the only RAF peer. This was why Trenchard was so opposed to Dowding being made MRAf and being given a peerage. He did not suceed with the latter, but in fact Dowding did not exploit his position in the Lords.
Portal was moved into the CASe slot early, but he wasn't chosen in haste - he had been the heir apparent since the late '30s.
Portal was an outstanding CAS. His view on long-range fighters was the conventional one across almost all air forces; it was only the unlooked-for advent of the P.51D that produced a long-range fighter that could mix it with short-range interceptors. He did fail to curb Harris at the end of the war, but that was his only major failure.
Portal held onto Freeman because it would be easier for Freeman to deal with the older officers, and because Freeman, as one of Salmond's knifemen in the sackings, knew where the bodies were buried. Freeman had indeed lost his chance to be CAS when he traded in his wife for a much younger model (and was lucky the war came along, otherwise he would have had to retire an AVM in 1938), but he was of Newall's generation, and probably wouldn't have got it anyway. His appointment as VCAS was supposed to be temporary, as a transition measure, until Tedder could take over, but Tedder got caught up in the Middle East. In the end, it was Evill, Dowding's erstwhile SASO, who got the job.
Douglas was not a wartime MRAF, and his promotion in 1946 was partly political (when he got his barony a year later, he took the Labour whip). He in fact was the real target of Taylor's crack about "lesser men"; Taylor meant lesser man but by making it a plural, he was avoiding a direct accusation.
LW -
Message 10
Posted by merlin (U10448262) on Sunday, 31st May 2009
Wrong?
Maybe - my source - as quoted in earlier posts, was a library book - long since returned.
However, on all the posts that have been made - no one, much to my surprise,has commented on the apparent inaccuaracy on the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ website that I referred to at the start of the thread.
To refer once again to John Terraine's excellent book Right of the line, p.256 re: Portal
"But two serious questions remain: first, even if Portal was personally convinced that Downding must go(and even if he was quite right), why was the acknowledged victor of the daylight battle allowed to go in such a disrespectful fashion? And secondly, did Portal really thing that the insubordination of Leigh-Mallory and the machinations surrounding the entire event were unimportant? The whole subject has an odour which refuses to die away."
Dowding thought later, that looking back that he should have done something about Leigh-Mallory, trouble was - he was a 'professional' and assumed that others would likewise act in a 'professional' manner and put personal difference aside.
Other recommended reading is Stephen Bungay's excellent Battle of Britain book - The most dangerous enemy, and Hough & Richards The Battle of Britain. -
Message 11
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 31st May 2009
no1catman
Sorry again, but it is "Wrong, definitely". In 1940, the Air Council consisted of:
The Secretary of State for Air (Sinclair, a politician)
The Parliamentary Under Secretary (also a politician)
The Chief of the Air Staff (Newall, then Portal)
DCAS/VCAS (Pierse, then Freeman)
The Air Member for Personnel (Portal, then Gossage)
The Air Member for Supply (Welsh, then Courtney)
The Air Member for Training (Garrod)
The Air Member for R&D (Freeman)
Ministry of Aircraft Production (Freeman)
PUS (civil servant - Sir Arthur Street)
two other civil servants.
Newall was an MRAF while on the Air Council, but only because he was promoted MRAF while CAS. The other MRAFs at the time, Trenchard, Ellington and Salmond did not have seats on the Air Council, nor did Newall after he stepped down as CAS. Until Portal was promoted MRAF at the beginning of 1944, there was no MRAf on the Air Council.
Source: The RAF 1939-45 Volume 1: The Fight At Odds, Denis Richards (Official Historian) -
Message 12
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 1st June 2009
Sorry, that was a little harsher than I intended. One of the standard works (can't track it down, either)does say that MRAFs sit on the Air Council, but it is wrong.
However, the fact is that MRAFs (and Field Marshals and Admirals of the Fleet) do NOT formally retire, they go on half pay (or would, if we were still creating any). Thus, they are the senior rank in their service (often outranking the serving Chief of Staff), and they have a right to continue to involve themselves in the matters of their service.
Trenchard and Salmond used this right to interfere in 1940, against both Newall and Dowding. They, and their disciples on the Air Staff were probably afraid Dowding would behave in similar fashion - Trenchard was definitely opposed to a peerage for Dowding because he thought it would give him a platform in the Lords.
Most of these "five star" officers behave themselves - Ellington did not interfere, nor did Field Marshal Ironside or Admiral of the Fleet Lord Chatfield (who had more excuse than most, as he had been manoeuvred out of his Cabinet post as Minister of Co-Ordination of Defence by Churchill when he came back as First Lord). -
Message 13
Posted by merlin (U10448262) on Monday, 15th June 2009
First of all I appreciate the first comment on the second message.
Nevertheless, I find it curious that your replies centre on the first two words of my post - 'Wrong? Maybe - ' Rest explaining why I could not elaborate or retract my previous comment.
Curious, as I said why your reply completely ignored the rest of the post.
Though, in part the reply, did illustrate the way Trenchard liked to interfere - and its his and others connivance behind the scenes that got Dowding dismissed, with little recognition for his achievement; rather than it being done at the behest of Churchill - as the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ site says!
I thought I might get a comment from 'admin' but no.
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