Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Proof of the holocaust
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
How would you convince a fan of David Irving that the holocaust existed?
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Message 2
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
Ask him to talk to a survivor.
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Message 3
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
The underlying problem is not historical but ideological. How do you penetrate a shield of solid prejudice ?
By asking the denier to talk to a survivor you would be telling him to talk to a representative of that group of people they despise the most. It is not that talking to a survivor is a bad methodolgy historically, it is a matter of whether the survivor can penetrating the shield.
In my opinion a steady drip-drip of factual challenges is necessary. Demand they substantiate any 'facts' they assert, and have enough factually correct, properly referenced data of your own. You may not 'convert' the denier, but you can cut away those next to him that may be wavering for whatever reason. -
Message 4
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
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Message 5
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
Thanks JB, but I'm told the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ are a biased source!
To be honest, I'm not sure there's anything which can be said to some people who want to believe a particular version of events. I guess the best one can do is counter their outlandish claims with evidence and hope no-one else falls for their rubbish. -
Message 6
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
How would you convince a fan of David Irving that the holocaust existed?Β
1)Remind the fan that Irving lost all his money in the failed libel case against Deborah Lipstadt in 1996. (The court confirmed that the Holocaust had happened and that Irving was wrong to deny it.)
2)Point out that Irving went to prison in Austria in 2006 for Holocaust-denial there.
3)Take the doubting Thomas to Aushwitz or Yad Vashem.
4) Suggest he reads "If this is a man" by Primo Levi.
or
5) That he looks at "Maus" by Art Spiegelman. -
Message 7
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:16 GMT, in reply to cloudyj in message 5
To be honest, I'm not sure there's anything which can be saidΒ
Indeed. Sadly, the honest answer to the OP is probably "You wouldn't". The evidence is widely available, as it is. There are some people who are lost causes. -
Message 8
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
1)Remind the fan that Irving lost all his money in the failed libel case against Deborah Lipstadt in 1996Β
I was going to mention the work of Deborah Lipstadt, who disproved just about every claim of the holocaust deniers, and exposed their many duplicities, such as the fake credentials of Fred Leuchter.
A friend of mine wrote his dissertation on holocaust denial way back when. I recall one of his sources was a paper on conspiracy theories in general, which identified one of the key characteristics of conspiracy believers as their imperviousness to contradictory evidence. Basically, when confronted with evidence undermining their theory, they will simply extend the conspiracy to claim that the evidence is part of a worldwide programme of disinformation. Their minds are thus closed, their theories unfalsifiable (in the sense used by Karl Popper). -
Message 9
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
cloudyj
How would you convince a fan of David Irving that the holocaust existed?Β The Jewish Holocaust in Europe is the best ever documented genocide in the history of mankind. Multiple court rulings in Europe - not particularly Jew-friendly places either - proved it. Holocaust denials compete in stupidity only with the Holocaust perpetrators themselves. -
Message 10
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
Can't blame the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ. "The World at War" series was an ITV Production. No doubt a reality denier would point to its producers such as Jeremy Isaacs and David Elstein and its commissioner Lord Lew Grade and say, "There, See!"
But make them watch it and explain the images. They are the ones challenging the established view of the academic community on the basis that the one bloke who says otherwise is right because he says so and because they're all wrong. Make them explain how that works in all its conspiratorial carpet-chewing glory, so we know where we all stand.
Truth is, unlike the people who deny the moon-landings who are just idiots and WUMs, most holocaust deniers know very well what happened and are engaged in the same games their Nazi heroes were playing from Wansee onwards. Holocaust denial is integral to the holocaust. The walking dead the British found at Belsen were shifted there in haste so that the Russians (of Katyn fame) would have no eyewitnesses just like it was intended that they would find no paperwork or standing buildings. -
Message 11
Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
Holocaust deniers were anticipated from the outset in 1945. This was why Lord Beaverbrook hired Alfred Hitchcock to shoot a film of local Germans who were forced to walk through one of the death camps. To preclude the possibility of future denials, Hitchcock included shoots taken from a high vantage point covering an immense panorama - something that could not realistically be falsified.
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Message 12
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
I am not any as-if oversensitive like most of you above, that selectively protest over the denial of genocides depending on each case. Hence, to people that deny the holocaust I only speak with reason:
I come from Thessaloniki, previously home to a very important Jewish Sefarad community, the Ladinos. Until mid-1941 they would be around 40,000-45,000 of them. A couple of years later there was no-one. At the end 5,000 people came back. The rest disappeared? Or went on holidays? Or went to man the population at Israel to fulfil the zionist plans? Had they done so we would still see them around Thessaloniki, however what we see is only a handful of people that live with the memories of all their relatives lost in that genocide.
Denying the holocaust is denying common logic 1+1=2. Now on the other hand someone can argue with the numbers. Some say the numbers are overinflated. Some say they add the deaths of gipsies, Slavs and political enemies to rise up to 5,000,000. So? What if it was 2,990,000 or 3,450,000? It is each of these human beings that counts. It was not certainly any order of 200,000 people like some say. The mere fact that in a random small country that Germans invaded almost by accident and where they faced a huge opposition by the local population and fierce resistance movements, Germans still found the time to consacrate to sweep over several 10,000s of Jewish people, says it all, extrapolate the number to bigger, more important countries, with fewer resistance from local populations and more German army and SS and more numerous Jewish populations and you get the dark reality... any Nazi sympathaser can be whatever he want, people are willing to believe in whatever lie for their reasons, but then he should know that he will not be in position to convince anyone else. -
Message 13
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
suvorovetz
"The Jewish Holocaust in Europe is the best ever documented genocide in the history of mankind"
Nazi Murder was not confined to Jews - More non-Jews died in the camps. -
Message 14
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
That is the point. Rather like those who argue that commercial aircraft did not hit the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon in 2001 but cannot explain convincingly what happened to the missing passengers there was a verified population of over 9m Jews living in Europe before WWII. After the war there was less than 3m. So where did the missing millions disappear to? Only a tiny fraction turned up in Palestine, later Israel. It is this demographic hole that is the biggest proof of the Holocaust.
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Message 15
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
More non-Jews died in the camps.Β
Only if you include Soviet POWs who were not put in the extermination camps. Also almost a million Russian Jews were not taken to the camps but murdered in situ by the Einsatzkommando from 1941 onwards. Although many other groups were subject to "special measures" the Jews exceeded the deaths in all other groups put together. The next largest group in terms of casualties were the Poles but even here the Jews exceeded the Poles by around 3:1 (although of course the largest Jewish community in Europe was in Poland).
The figures for the Holocaust are not speculative or fanciful but were largely compiled by the Nazi authorities under Eichmann and were presented at Nuremberg and have been found to be substantially accurate. -
Message 16
Posted by wiseraphael (U9522166) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
Whoa everyone....you've all missed the point. I'm writing as one who lost over 50 relatives in the camps and to the Einsatzgruppen.
You don't think that a top historian like Irvine really thinks that the Holocaust didn't happen. Of course not.
What he is doing is based on the way the Nazis based their propaganda, namely...IF YOU TELL A LIE OFTEN ENOUGH , SOME PEOPLE WILL EVENTUALLY BELIEVE IT....and then more and more till everyone does. That is the way Hitler and Goebbels got into power.
As an example, in the 20s Hitler, who had been in the trenches, said repeatedly, again and again that the Jews did not fight for Germany, they stayed at home and got rich, and betrayed thei country.....actually tens of thousands of Jews fought in the German army, thousands were killed and 300 Jews actually won the Iron Cross. Nevertheless thelies were told so often that eventually people...even a sophisticated and educated people like the Germans...came to believe it.
This is the way Irvine is working...there is no point in trying to convince him otherwise 'cos he knows the truth, just like Hitler did. -
Message 17
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
Mani
Nazi Murder was not confined to Jews - More non-Jews died in the camps.Β Murder of both Jews and non-Jews was neither confined to "Nazi murder" as you put it. Bolsheviks murdered many more millions than Nazis ever got a hold of. The Jewish Holocaust stands out as the most irrational policy in modern history. -
Message 18
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
kick his door down at four in the morning. Drag him and his family out and load them on to lorries while all his neighbours stand by and do nothing. Run them to the train station and load them into containers with no food water or hygene precautions. Take them for a 3 day train ride.
Off load them at a bleak trainstop in the middle of know were surrounded by barbed wire seperate him from his wife and kids and drag them off.
Shave his head, strip him naked and drag him off to a ditch make him kneel down push a pistol into the back of his head and then ask him if he still thinks its a fantasy. -
Message 19
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
backtothedarkplace (dan)Free Sean!,
kick his door down at four in the morning. Drag him and his family out and load them on to lorries while all his neighbours stand by and do nothing. Run them to the train station and load them into containers with no food water or hygene precautions. Take them for a 3 day train ride.
Off load them at a bleak trainstop in the middle of know were surrounded by barbed wire seperate him from his wife and kids and drag them off.
Shave his head, strip him naked and drag him off to a ditch make him kneel down push a pistol into the back of his head and then ask him if he still thinks its a fantasy.Β
I've fancied that method now and then but, aside from the expense, it always comes back to the "lead a horse to water" syndrome. OTOH, don't be surprised to see it as a "reality tv" series in the near future. -
Message 20
Posted by Nickiow (U13798335) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
How would you convince a fan of David Irving that the holocaust existed?
A good question, anyone ever explained to a moron that they were moronic and got them to acept that they were?, not easy. -
Message 21
Posted by curiousGareth (U8383504) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
Provide evidence of, or reference to, first-hand documentary source of a technical or historical nature proving that gas chambers were 1) plausible in 1945, and 2) existent in camps such as Auschwitz prior to 1945; that the 'final solution' was explicitly genocidal, and not territorial; and that the Germans (for they have become uniformally responsible via reperation schemes) intended to exterminate every Jew in Europe despite sending thousands to Palestine and populating the ranks of their factories and armed forces with Jews.
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Message 22
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
I do not think this thread should be allowed to develop into a platform for Holocaust deniers and supporters of the Fourth Reich to spout their filth but try looking at this, if you have the ability to do so:
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Message 23
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
In February 1990, Professor Jan Markiewicz, Director of the Forensic Institute of Cracow, redid the analysis.[1][11] Markiewicz decided that the Prussian blue test was unreliable because it depended on the acidity of the environment, which was low in the gas chambers. Markiewicz and his team used microdiffusion techniques to test for cyanide in samples from the gas chambers, from delousing chambers, and from living areas elsewhere within Auschwitz. The living quarter samples (negative controls) tested negative, while cyanide residue was found in both the delousing chambers and the gas chambers. The amount of cyanide found had a great variability (possibly due to 50 years of exposure to the elements to varying degrees[12]), but even so, the categorical results were that cyanide was found where expected in both the gas chambers and the delousing facilities, and not found in the living quarters, supporting the hypothesis that the gas chambers were exposed to high levels of cyanide like the delousing facilities, and not low levels for routine fumigation, like the living quarters. Β
- Wikipedia.
Note the attempt at a critique of this appended in the wikipedia article is unreferenced and should therefore be ignored.
Note also that the original analysis much cited by deniers was conducted by a man who was a professional fraud and had no credentials in chemistry or toxicology. -
Message 24
Posted by midisnake25 (U13858030) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
Bolsheviks murdered many more millions than Nazis ever got a hold of. The Jewish Holocaust stands out as the most irrational policy in modern history.Β
and we all should know the massive Jewish influence in the Bolshevik revolution, funded from New york.
The real holocaust. opps, we can't say that can we its not PC right.
red cross report anyone 200, 300,000 of all races?
are we too deny this too? -
Message 25
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
Provide evidence of, or reference to, first-hand documentary source of a technical or historical nature proving that gas chambers were 1) plausible in 1945, and 2) existent in camps such as Auschwitz prior to 1945;Β
There's a whole host of evidence here and plenty of references:
despite sending thousands to PalestineΒ
In 1943? Do you have any evidence that they did this?
and populating the ranks of their factories and armed forces with JewΒ
By populating factories, I guess you mean using them for slave labour.
Have you any evidence for them knowingly recruiting Jews into the army? They'd been banned from joining up since the thirties. -
Message 26
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
midisnake25
we all should know the massive Jewish influence in the Bolshevik revolution, funded from New yorkΒ What exactly does this mean? Are you justifying the Holocaust with the fact that a handful of converts with Jewish ancestry were implicated in the Bolsheviks' atrocities? Marx, whose parents had been converts out of Judaism, was probably a bigger Jew hater than Dr. Goebbels. Did the Byelorussian villagers have to be slaughtered for that? It's interesting that people like you never demand an international crime tribunal for Communists, i.e., international socialists; just shill for Nazis, i.e., national socialists. -
Message 27
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
and we all should know the massive Jewish influence in the Bolshevik revolution, funded from New york.
The real holocaust. opps, we can't say that can we its not PC right.
red cross report anyone 200, 300,000 of all races?
are we too deny this too?Β
What's that got to do with this? I'd certainly condemn communism and it's associated -isms as genocidal. But by bringing it up now it does sound worryingly like one of the Nazis's excuses for their genocide.
Another group of nutters being evil most certainly didn't justify the crimes of the Nazis against innocents. -
Message 28
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
I was planning on pulling the trigger if he said no! Dont think that would make it on to TV over here. -
Message 29
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
I'm not going to be bogged down in the foolish dispute - did the holocaust ever exist or not ?
Yes, it existed.
But......as our man rightly pointed out.....
'Nazi Murder was not confined to Jews - More non-Jews died in the camps.'- it has turned out that 'wise and clever' Israelis did their best ( by all means !!! ) to make the holocaust the best ever DOCUMENTED genocide in the 'history of mankind'. They needed in it to prove their rights on having of their own state ( the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ , Wiseraphael ).
Gypsies ( being illiterate ) were not capable and probably even were not interested in creating the 'written and documented' grounds for their own Memorial Of Victims because Gypsies have never demanded and wanted a separate state...somewhere between India and Palestine....for themselves. The holocaust which is 'would be ' the Greatest genocide in the "history of mankind' mentions me the myth , which exists in the West, about 'Russians' who won on their own the WWII.
Or even more often I can hear from the Westerners about 'Russia' ( instead of the correct 'ussr' - the state which included in itself many nationalities and where those 'russians' were in minority ) as the winner of the WWII. -
Message 30
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
Other 'handful of Jews' wore the ' wing' on their left hand which was given them by Nazis in Warsaw Getto, Suvorovetz. The wise Israelis don't like to mention about them. Instead they chose to blame John Demianuk ( the KGB clue ) in being of the Ukrainian so called 'ivan the terrible'
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Message 31
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 32
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 33
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
"...Nowhere are there technical drawings detailing the workings of the mammoth operation..."
Lies.
"...On the contrary, there have been ample records of immigration of Jews, and Court Martials for Germans shooting unarmed Jewish detainees. It doesn't add up..."
I have already pointed out on the other thread that this is irrelevant. But I also asked you to substantiate this with a source. I ask again. What is your source ? -
Message 34
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
OUNUPA it has turned out that 'wise and clever' Israelis did their best ( by all means !!! ) to make the holocaust the best ever DOCUMENTED genocide in the 'history of mankind'. They needed in it to prove their rights on having of their own state ( the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ , Wiseraphael )Β Nonsense again, my friend. First of all, as I mentioned, it was the stupid Holocaust perpetrators who documented their every step rather than the "smart" Jews. By contrast, the Communists, particularly, Lenin, Stalin & Co managed to hide many more skeletons for much longer. As for Israelis, they have a knack for running the worst international public relations operation in the world. That said, Israel's "founding father" Ben Gurion had a lot of information about the Holocaust, and he made a conscious decision to use this information to beat the UN votes out of Rockefeller's client countries instead of going after the Nazi criminals. It turned out that Rockefeller, who was very influential in South America - where the crucial votes came from, - made business with the Holocaust perpetrators, and was therefore in direct violation of the Trading With The Enemy Act (see Loftus and Aarons, The Secret War Against the Jews).
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Message 35
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 36
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
...defumigation areas for the detainees...Β
The allegation that Zyklon-B was only used for reasons of sanitation is simply not credible. Zyklon-B for standard pesticide use was manufactured doped with a strong-smelling 'warning gas' as a safety precaution. The version manufactured for extermination purposes was made without the warning gas, leaving it odourless. Not only does this suggest a non-standard application, it suggests an attempt to reduce panic and maintain secrecy. -
Message 37
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
"...You can disprove that this is a de-licing chamber, from the blueprints themselves?..."
The historians who have analysed it seems to say so. In any case, you said there were no blueprints. There are.
"...I have specified my source - Lenni Brenner 51 documents..."
This appears to refer only to deportations/immigration. As I said on the other thread, you appear ignorant of the timeline of the Holocaust. You also appear ignorant of the original declared intent of the Nazis (reference 'Mein Kampf', and many other public Nazi documents) to rid Germany of Jews and the later change provoked by the course of the war. I have already told you why the deportations are irrelevant. You have not bothered to reply to that, but merely repeat your lies.
My comment in the above post referred to your statement that Germans court martialled soldiers for killing Jews. You seem determined to deliberately mis-read what has been said. Quite provocative but useless as a tactic.
The odiuos Irving has 'documented' it has he ? Have any actual historians documented it ? -
Message 38
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
This is what Lenni Brenner (an American Marxist and anti-Zionist) had to say about the Holocaust Denial movement in relation to his work:
It is in order for me to dismiss the Institute's [Institute for Historial Review] praise of "Zionism in the Age of the Dictators" by saying that this is of no more importance the fact that roaches like gourmet cooking just as much as you do. But readers are entitled to know why these nutsies liked it. Basically, they minimize the Holocaust: 'Aw right, so Hitler didn't exactly like Jews. And he rounded them up, as enemies, and some of them died of disease. An' besides, what about Roosevelt rounding up the Japanese Americans on the West Coast? An' look at Stalin's Katyn massacre, and Churchill's horrific bombing of Dresden, and the A-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Here the Yids are, yelling about Hitler, while the Allied leaders were monsters, just like Hitler. Damned if it isn't true that everyone has skeletons in their closet. Why go on dumping on po' ol' Adolf?' Given this loony psychology, their catalogue is full of books on Allied crimes, no less crimes for being emphasized by these crazies. In the same way, my exposure of real Zionist activities during the Nazi era became additional 'proof' that Hitler was no worse than the rest of the wicked world.
As I don't waste my time reading such crackpots, I have no idea if they still even mention my book. Certainly they are insane if they went on praising me, or my book, after I told them that I hailed anyone who burns their headquarters.Β -
Message 39
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
Ounupa, the literacy levels of each group subjected to persecution has no bearing on the amount of evidence available. The majority of the evidence used at the Nuremberg trial was collated deliberately from German state controlled archives. As such the issue of the holocaust only touches briefly on political Zionism and the creation of Israel in that the Jewish revolt that caused the British to hand over the mandate to the UN was precipitated by attempts to limit the influx of refugees from Europe in the aftermath of the Second World War. The issue of the Palestine mandate had vexed British colonial ministers from before the war when the Arab population had revolted in response to the rising number of Jewish immigrants following an upsurge in antisemitism in many European states during the 1930s.
Back on topic, anybody interested arming themselves with references as to where specific information is located can check out this website. It provides a rundown of the evidence as well as a html link documenting the original source and where it is reproduced.
This section is particularly relevant.
This article shows how much of the evidence was collated in the first place.
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Message 40
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
The problem with clinging to the kind of frankly offensive filth such as the suggestion that Zyklon-B was for disinfecting the new arrivals lies with everything else you have to beleive in order to construct a coherent intellectual universe in which such odious and contemptible falsehoods can exist.
Assuming that you don't think that the entire academic community except David Irving are all thick, you are then required to call up some manner of Global Zionist Conspiracy to explain it all, based on a secret island somewhere where all the missing 'victims' are hiding. -
Message 41
Posted by Nickiow (U13798335) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
What Irving and his *Fans* all have in common is the ability to disregard overwhelming evidence when it contradicts there ideological viewpoint.
You simply cannot pass through UK/USA/French etc education and not be made aware of that evidence, if your takeing courses relating to history of course, or if your taqking law courses you made aware in the USA that then USSC has rulled it to be fact in law.
Irving and his *fans* are beyond argument, fortunatly they are a rare breed.
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Message 42
Posted by Nickiow (U13798335) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
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Message 43
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 12th March 2009
Re: Message 41 and 42.
Nickiow,
I thank you very much for the links. Altough I used already the Nizkor project for research I thank you nevertheless for bringing it again to my attention.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 44
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Friday, 13th March 2009
Ounupa, the literacy levels of each group subjected to persecution has no bearing on the amount of evidence available. The majority of the evidence used at the Nuremberg trial was collated deliberately from German state controlled archives.'- well, not the 'literacy'...but 'noisy'. Some people prefer to fight ....other people prefer to make a hysterical noise...and rail against other nations who suffered from their own Holodomor ( a genocide ) -the term which is only applied to the Ukrainians who were targeted by Stalin for the complete annihilation in the way like Hitler did it towards Jews, Gypsies and Slavs during the WWII . So Holocaust is the term which is applied only for the Jews who were victims of the Hitler's genocide. But Israelis ( together with Russians ) strongly oppose the fact that Holodomor ever existed at all !!!!???? Exactly about that very strange fact I am talking about, Suvorovetz. They even went far...The KGB and Israelis chose the very old Ukrainian John Demjanuk and made from him the 'ivan the terrible' of Treblinka....trying humiliate the state Ukraine during this very noisy and hysterical process by all means they got....claiming ( the Judge Zvai Tal ) that Demjanuk 'would be' was 'a chief hangman who killed tens of thousands of Jews ...with his own hands ??????????' . A clear case of hysteria and unseen demagogy. It is thanks to the determined efforts of Demjanuk's son , John Jnr, and his son-in-law Ed Nishnic, that he might shake off the death sentence!!!
and prove beyond doubt that he is not 'ivan the terrible' - even though it is conceivable he did work for the Nazis ( like those Jews who wore a 'wing' in Warsaw Getto ). After learning of their sleuthing through Kremlin KGB files ( which had become more accessible under glasnost and finally totally accessible after the fall of the 'ussr' . Gitta Sereny , the influent Italian journalist has pointed out :
"It is conceivable that the Israeli Supreme Court may now have to be content with Ivan the Terrible'.
So what you think to happen then, men ?
Now Isrealis are at it again !!!!
I have nothing against the archives. I just against the idea to see among the judges in Nuremberg such murders like Vyshinsky&Co. It goes against my spirit.
This is the Evidence which really is available without visiting any websites. Suvoeovetz, do you really think that without Miloshevich's genocide against Albanians in Kosovo ...... -
Message 45
Posted by Nickiow (U13798335) on Friday, 13th March 2009
Paul, your welcome, its not hard to find the evidence.
3 Vol series by Evans is a an excelnt hard copy read, and is also how the subject is currently taught at Uk university level by and large, takeing advanatge of the 90s access to former SU archhives opened up that they held from the war.
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Message 46
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 13th March 2009
OUNUPA But Israelis ( together with Russians ) strongly oppose the fact that Holodomor ever existed at all !!!!???? Exactly about that very strange fact I am talking about, SuvorovetzΒ I don't know anything about Iraeli position on Holodomor, and I doubt that they have any at all. But if you can correct me on this - with the sources - please be my guest. As for the Russians, I understand that their position is that Holodomor, although a real event, was not the genocide directed against Ukrainian people because the policy was not limited to Ukrainians and was conducted throughout the Soviet Union.
The KGB and Israelis chose the very old Ukrainian John Demjanuk and made from him the 'ivan the terrible' of Treblinka....trying humiliate the state Ukraine during this very noisy and hysterical process by all means they got....claiming ( the Judge Zvai Tal ) that Demjanuk 'would be' was 'a chief hangman who killed tens of thousands of Jews ...with his own handsΒ Demjanuk had his day in Israeli court and he was acquitted due to the case of mistaken identity. However, he is being identified as a guard of a different death camp. By defending him YOU humiliate Ukrainian people, not Israelis, and I am telling you that as a part-Ukrainian myself. -
Message 47
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 14th March 2009
ONOUPA, how can you call Milosevic unsuccessful policy in Kosovo as a genocide? If anything there was no genocide, just ethnic cleansing: Albanians throwing out Serbians (a process that started in the 1960s and culminated in the 1980s). By 1990s a few Serbians had been left there and their lifes were always at risk (especially of women who were raped systematically and those of policemen who were shot by distance outside their houses). And I am not even any particular friend of Serbians or any other Slav, even Bulgarians age old enemies of Serbians felt bad for their fate there...
When you know nothing, it is better not to speak. -
Message 48
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 14th March 2009
Re: Message 45.
Nickiow,
thanks again for this link.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 49
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Sunday, 15th March 2009
'I don't know anything about Iraeli position on Holodomor'
- not surprisingly , Suvorovetz. You are not a Ukrainian to be interested in Israeli position toward the Ukrainian history.
'the policy was not limited to Ukrainians and was conducted throughout the Soviet Union.'- stop to repeat the KGB's nonsense, Suvorovetz .....your 'logics' can drive itself to the outcome that there is no need to punish anyone for crimes because every minute everywhere throughout the world a crime is committed.
What sort of the thing which was conducted 'throughout the Soviet Union' is the task for the leaders and the historians of these post-soviet countries.Sadly to say but the most of the leaders in these countries are either the former CPSU 'big bosses'like Nazarbayev or even the former KGbers like Putin ...i.e. they belonged to the 'classes' which conducted the genocide . Their brains couldn't extract anything historically worth having ...except of that remark of yours.
People in those countries should realize that without memory of their parents then .... they have no future...and money into their pockets.
Putin and Nazarbayev both know that very well.
----------------
For Nick.
'there was no genocide, just ethnic cleansing'- Nick, there is the definition for the term 'genocide' . It says that a genocide is nothing more than .... the ethnic cleansing ....such were conducted against Checheners on the 23rd of Febrary ( the Day Of Stalin's Warriors) ,1943 when all Checheners were gathered in pack and brought into the Siberian exile....to die. No a word was said about it in Nurmberg. I guess you know why.
But it is possible to say that Hitler and Stalin both are the 'creators' of the independence of Israel...and Kosovo...A Paradox. -
Message 50
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Sunday, 15th March 2009
The legal definition of Genocide is problematic since it speaks of the destruction of a group, 'In whole or in part...'
The 'Part' part is gradually being defined by case law, and since Milosevic's aim was the eventual disappearance of the Kosovars as a group, most likely on the good old Stalinist principle of kill a third, expel a third, assimilate a third, it probably counts.
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