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Myths about the enemy
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Message 1.Â
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Tuesday, 3rd March 2009
Myths about other countries and peoples are nothing new but in wartime they take strange and interesting, let alone extreme, twists.
For instance, a favorite British myth puts the words "a nation of shopkeepers" into Bonaparte's mouth as his supposed denigration of the British character. Never mind that Adam Smith had already said as much in "The Wealth of Nations."
Just when the myth started is up for grabs: maybe it was during the Napoleonic Wars, maybe it was after Waterloo. Either way, myths grow like weeds.
What other wartime myths have been around long after their sell-by date? -
Message 2
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 3rd March 2009
One myth the British military had during WWII was that the German Army was autocratic and inflexible, masters of meticulous planning and technological excellence, but incapable of innovation or improvisation. They regarded themselves, on the other hand, as masters of improvisation, with the flexibility of mind on possible to members of a freedom-loving democracy. Virtually all British training publications reflect this view.
Of course, the complete opposite was true. The British excelled at the set-piece, but could rarely respond quickly enough to unexpected circumstance. The Germans, on the other hand, demonstrated a great ability to seize fleeting opportunities, and improvise responses. Their set-piece planning, on the other hand, often let them down (Wot? No winter clothing?).
These myths rapidly became obvious to those studying the campaigns post-war, but the myths continued to be promoted in popular histories, memoirs and films. -
Message 3
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 3rd March 2009
Their set-piece planning, on the other hand, often let them down (Wot? No winter clothing?)Â More like deficient strategic planning. Wehrmacht really was predominantly a tactical force, as was Luftwaffe.
the myths continued to be promoted in popular histories, memoirs and films Amen to that. -
Message 4
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 3rd March 2009
The Japanese were all short sighted, and their aircraft were rubbish.
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Message 5
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 3rd March 2009
And the French are just a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys.
(A myth that annoys me intensely, especially when repeated loudly in Paris by Brits or Americans who think they are being clever) -
Message 6
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 3rd March 2009
And Italian WWII tanks where inversed Ferraris with 1 speed for forward and 6 speeds for reverse ... as one English friend explained to me back in my uni. years... amazing!
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Message 7
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
The Yanks were all overpaid oversexed gum chewing men who thought they knew everything.
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Message 8
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
And carried on into peacetime by (amomg others) Ronald Searle, whose creation, schoolboy Nigel Molesworth, understood "Geography" in the following terms.
"The Rusians are rotters.
Americans are swankpots.
The French are slack.
The Germans are unspeakable.
The rest are as bad if not worse than the above.
The British are brave, super and noble, cheers, cheers, cheers." -
Message 9
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
A Brazilian Army legend had it that Hitler exclaimed that "snakes would smoke pipes before the Brazilians would join the allies." (paraphrase)
Hence, the FEB's shoulder patch.
Hitler would have been in an extremely rare picturesque, if not to say Churchillian, frame of mind to say such a thing. -
Message 10
Posted by MattJ18 (U13798409) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
That Waterloo was won 'on the playing fields of Eton' and that the British officer class were the reason why the 'Scum of the Earth' soldiery were able to win.
The great myth of the American War of Independence is that a few plucky farmers fought off the might of the British Empire - it ignores the importance of foreign intervention but is a major part of the American self-image.
When it comes to pure propoganda the Germans bayoneting babies in the first world war springs to mind. -
Message 11
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
There are two enduring myths about Hitler:- firstly, that his real surname was 'Schickelgruber', and secondly, that he worked as a painter & decorator.
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Message 12
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
The 'Angels of Mons' who led British troops into battle, as widely reported in the press as fact.
Also the Russian Army that landed in the North of England and marched to the Channel to join the fight on the WW1 Western Front. People knew they were Russian because they had snow on their boots.
The claim by Vince Bramley of 3 Para that there were Americans amonsgt the Argentine forces in the Falklands in 1982 because a mate in a pub(!) told him that he heard some POWs speaking English in American accents. (The idea that they might have been to school in the USA not even considered.) -
Message 13
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
The myth of the 'francs-tireur' in the early stages of WWI (used by German officers as an excuse for executing civilians).
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Message 14
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
A Brazilian Army legend had it that Hitler exclaimed that "snakes would smoke pipes before the Brazilians would join the allies." (paraphrase)Â
Just to prove its myth status, there's a claim that it was the Brazilian president who said it:
(about half way down under the Portugeuse sayings).
Joan of Arc being instructed by St Catherine to expel the English has to be a wartime myth. -
Message 15
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
The great myth of the American War of Independence is that a few plucky farmers fought off the might of the British Empire - it ignores the importance of foreign intervention but is a major part of the American self-image.Â
It's somewhat akin to the modern myth of Britain standing alone against Germany after the fall of France. Just us and the British Empire and the Commonwealth...
How about the WW2 campaign to collect saucepand and railings to make Spitfires? The metal was completely unsuitable for doing so and was nothing more than a morale boosting stunt. -
Message 16
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Wednesday, 4th March 2009
...And don't forget the East Europeans, Cloudyj
...Which is what someone has done here:
can you see what's wrong in this picture of th same aircraft?
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Message 17
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
The outstanding case is the 'tradition' to celebrate on 23ird of Febrary 1918 !!!!!! which is accepted in modern Russia ( and in Ukraine ????? thankfully to the famous Ukrainian Evita - Y.Timoshenko.... who ride , without looking back, together with commies and yanukovichs the horse of 'celebrating' such sort of 'holidays' in a hope to gain support from all who have never read a book throughout his life time ) the Day of the Brave Soldier-Defender of the Motherland. Nothing quite like it has never been known in other countries of the world. But it is widely known fact that when Reds refused to sign the German peace treaty in Brest ( 'neither peace nor war' outcome ) on the 18th of February the German troops advanced. Dvinsk ( Russians say that it was events in Dvinsk which gave them the grounds to claim about Bravity of the Red soldiers ) was immediately captured without resistance. The last remaining Russian troops fell apart altogether -and by the...23th of February Germans had advanced 150 miles. But it was as much as the whole German army had advanced in the three previous years of fighting. What Ukraine has to do with the Russian town Dvinsk which is far away from Ukraine is another question.
The real day of the Ukrainian Army comes on 29 of January 1918 when 600 Ukrainian students of the Military School ( Kuren') in Kruty stood firmly against 30,000 ( 4 Armies ) of Reds under the command of Muraviyov and Antonov-Ovseenko. The Kruty was the key town to Red's advance toward the capital-Kyiv. During 12 hours the drunken sailors' stormed in 'assault' the Ukrainian lines. ...All fallen Ukrainian heroes under the command of Sotnyk Omelchenko (including these captured by Reds heroes who were then tortured and shot ) were buried on 19th of March 1918 in Kyiv's graveyard -Askold.
The President V.Yushchenko introduced this day into the Ukrainian memorial list of the national holidays. But not all of modern Ukrainian politicians are keen on this idea . Some other things attract them more....as it has turned out... -
Message 18
Posted by Mikestone8 (U13249270) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
That Waterloo was won 'on the playing fields of Eton' and that the British officer class were the reason why the 'Scum of the Earth' soldiery were able to win.Â
Sounds like the old one about European education.
"British schools teach about how Wellington won at Waterloo.
German schools teach about how Blucher won at Waterloo.
French schools teach about how Napoleon came second." -
Message 19
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
...And don't forget the East Europeans, Cloudyj
...Which is what someone has done here:
www.bnp.org.uk/battl...
can you see what's wrong in this picture of th same aircraft?
·É±ð²ú²õ¾±³Ù±ð.±ô¾±²Ô±ð´Ç²Ô±ð.²Ô±ð³Ù/...Ìý
Ah, how I laughed when I saw that. -
Message 20
Posted by RedGuzzi750 (U7604797) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
Courtesy of my late Grandmother -
"Scott I know for sure that Italian fishermen refuelled Japanese subs off the coast of Nowra"...
When I asked her how she knew it (bearing in mind lived on a farm high up Mt Cambewarra above Nowra), she said "I read it in the local paper".
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Message 21
Posted by MattJ18 (U13798409) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
JB-on-Sea/Cloudy - am I missing something about those two spitfire photos?
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Message 22
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
The national flag has been removed off the nose.
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Message 23
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
...all it takes is a little polish.
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Message 24
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
YUK.
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Message 25
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
Courtesy of my late Grandmother -
"Scott I know for sure that Italian fishermen refuelled Japanese subs off the coast of Nowra"...
When I asked her how she knew it (bearing in mind lived on a farm high up Mt Cambewarra above Nowra), she said "I read it in the local paper".Â
No, Scotty, they were refuelled and resupplied in the western bays and harbours of the Republic of Ireland.
How do I know? This gem came courtesy of a Â鶹ԼÅÄ Northern Ireland 'documentary' entitled Tailwind which was about Northern Ireland's role in the air war during WWII and was broadcast last week.
One of the survivors from the flying-boat base at Castle Archdale on Lough Erne recalled her memory of having cycled towards the Republic of Ireland(a place which she said was off-limits to her) on an outing to Pettigoe. Suddenly, at one point she was told to lie down and hide. When she asked why her travelling companions told her they heard 'German' voices and that a German submarine was being refuelled. She then looked knowingly at the camera and said: 'Speaken die Deutsch'!
In the context of what she was saying I thought that the reference to 'Sprechen Sie Deutsch' was a non sequitor and, in any case, being miles from the sea, I could not understand how they could hear anyone speaking at any coastal location in the Republic. Also, although she never said she herself heard the voices or saw a submarine, I'm still puzzled. The programme makers made no attempt to clarify what she said or asked her to further explain or edit out what is now a thoroughly debunked bit of propaganda. The programme did mention the air corridor that De Valera allowed the flying-boats across Eire's airspace to the Atlantic. -
Message 26
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Thursday, 5th March 2009
JB-on-Sea/Cloudy - am I missing something about those two spitfire photos?Â
The BNP attempting to use a British icon for it's nationalist and anti-European stance managed to pick one which was one of the RAF's Polish squadrons. -
Message 27
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 6th March 2009
Hi JB-on-Sea
“The claim by Vince Bramley of 3 Para that there were Americans amonsgt the Argentine forces in the Falklands in 1982 because a mate in a pub(!) told him that he heard some POWs speaking English in American accents. (The idea that they might have been to school in the USA not even considered.)â€
The claim is a bit more than that – My old man was there and I later served with the guys who were with him. All stated the same thing – there were US citizens working Mercenaries, specifically Snipers for the Argentine forces.
These were not Anglo-Argentine US educated conscripts as some have stated… The fact that it became politically expedient to Airlift them out says it all really…
Lost weekend,
“And the French are just a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys.â€
You are right that this is myth – Nobody can eat cheese and nothing but cheese
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Message 28
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Friday, 6th March 2009
Very Improbable, Mani. The US system does not allow secrets like that to be kept.
...But if true, they would have been instructors from the Panama-based School Of The Americas where the US Military and other security agencies trained many Argentine officers in a variety of activities including torture.
Problem for this theory is that we know that both Haig and Weinberger were strongly Pro-British, and would not have looked kindly on such matters. -
Message 29
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 6th March 2009
Hi JB-on-Sea
Given my experience of US mercenaries, I would take an opposite view and say very probable!
As I said, this isn't hearsay but from the Guys who were there...
They stated these were not Serving US military personnel -
Message 30
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Friday, 6th March 2009
Mick__mac, here in California I was told the following can't vouch for truth but was told by a air pilot, he belonged to a flight club, and claimed that one of the members in his club started his training in flying as a teenager, taxiing German planes up and down the Western sea shore in Eire during the War, said they were spotter planes for convoys. Many Americans are pilots and all I've found are very disciplined and trust worthy, goes with the occupation or pastime, won't last long otherwise. May have been a myth but some in the club were ex-RAF fighter pilots so it could be true as would be questioning it. Thinking of it, they may have been regular civilian small planes and not military so regardless who were flying it German or Irish the mission would be the same.
On an American TV program saw what claimed to be a true event where an American Bomber with full crew had to ditch near the Eire west coast during the War. On getting ashore the Irish villagers found they were American and would be interned if the authorities knew of them, so the villagers kept quiet about it and kept them hidden, unsure of the end, whether they managed to get them to N. Island, but were kept out of the hands of the authorities, many Irish have relatives in the USA so quite a bond between the Irish and Americans. -
Message 31
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 6th March 2009
Mani,
Given my experience of US mercenaries, I would take an opposite view and say very probable!Â
What exactly is your experience of US mercenaries? -
Message 32
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 6th March 2009
WC,
"What exactly is your experience of US mercenaries?"
Do you mean where or what they are like?
As to where - Every theatre I have served in...
As to What they are like, ranging from Professional to utter Amateur! -
Message 33
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 6th March 2009
They're your experiences, Mani. Do tell.
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Message 34
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 6th March 2009
You mean where I have served?
Oman, Iraq, Balkans, Belize amongst others.... -
Message 35
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Friday, 6th March 2009
It's not the possibility I object to, Mani. It's the notion that this would or could be covered up.
If they were entirely unofficial hired mercenaries as you suggest, then what incentive is there for the USA to keep it quiet or allow US nationals to get away with such behaviour if it is not officially sanctioned, or if they are not also engaged in various unauthorised dirty tricks on behalf of Uncle Sam such, as we know happened in Nicaragua and El Salvador around this time?
So my suggestion that they could only have been SOA 'advisors' who were at this time out-of-control a la Olly North and his pals. -
Message 36
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Friday, 6th March 2009
Fri, 06 Mar 2009 17:27 GMT, in reply to WhiteCamry in message 1
One myth about the German garrison in Jersey during the Occupation is that there were SS troops in the Island. The 'SS' were in fact the personnel of a tank regiment - the confusion coming from their black uniforms and Death's Head badges. -
Message 37
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
One disasterous myth had top be the claim of the Minie cartridge being greased with pork and beef fat which contributed towards the Indian Mutiny.
Where Officers insisted they weren't the mutineers didn't believe them. Where Officers allowed the sepoys to make their own cartridge grease, some claimed this was proof that the other grease wasn't suitable. -
Message 38
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:47 GMT, in reply to cloudyj in message 37
I know about the cow/pig grease being a myth, but what *were* they greased with (if anything?) -
Message 39
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
know about the cow/pig grease being a myth, but what *were* they greased with (if anything?)Â
A mixture of vegatable oils and tallow if my memory serves. -
Message 40
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Tuesday, 10th March 2009
From wikipedia:
Tallow is a rendered form of beef or mutton fat...Â
So we're saying it was mutton dressed as cow? -
Message 41
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 11th March 2009
So we're saying it was mutton dressed as cow?Â
D'oh! Should have said mutton tallow.
There was also a similar myth that the British were polluting the salt with cows' blood. In reality it was the poor quality dye in the sacks leaking into the salt.
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