Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Bombing of Blackpool
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by collins6789 (U7571065) on Saturday, 28th February 2009
A News story is that Blackpool was not bombed in World War 2 as Hitler wanted it as a playground after he had conquered Britain, dispite Wellington Bombers and other military equpment being made there. My hometown of Oxford also was not bombed very mush at all, ever though Lancaster wings, Spitfire Radiators and many other things being made in the Morris factories and other places. I was told that Hitler wanted to have Oxford as his capital, possibly if Londan was too badly damages. What other towns with large munition factories and other targets were not bombed by the Germans and why?.
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Message 2
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
During the War saw German bombers silhouetted in the sky when coke ovens were discharged at coal by-products plants in Wales plus never heard of coal mines bombed there, or steel works which were practically impossible to black-out. Docks were bombed early during the War for obvious reason, so houses close were hit. There is a lot the British public were kept in the dark off, its claimed if Churchill could keep his British Empire the World could go to Hell. India was promised self rule if they aided and fought for Britain during the War, that promise was not honored by Churchill at War's end. Its claimed Eisenhower when US President told Britain America would not aid Britain in a War to protect her Empire. Many political stories of course, but many essential War industries in Britain were left untouched (although not to state that some were not bombed) as many claimed for eventual separate peace deal with Britain. Churchlll feared Stalin far more than Hitler. As for the fable that the allies should have stopped Hitler when he started, very few wanted War plus they were in no position to stop him. Took the Americans to finally seal his fate.
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Message 3
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
You have to consider that it was well into 1943, even 1944 before the Allied powers had figured out what targets were really useful to bomb in Germany, and how to hit them heavily enough to do real damage. Air staffs on both sides often lacked adequate targeting information: They had to figure out what targets on the other side were both vital and vulnerable, and where these were located. It took the RAF and USAAF years to arrive at action plans for strategic bombing that worked, the Luftwaffe never did.
Their best opportunity was in 1940 and 1941, but the targeting information available to the Luftwaffe was poor. The quality of German intelligence was in general not as good as that available to the Allies, despite a few noteworthy coups. The Nazi philosophy of government was to encourage competition rather than cooperation, so the various intelligence agencies of the Reich frequently got in each other's way and rarely exchanged information.
The "Baedeker raids" of 1942 took their name because a German officer boasted that he took the target list from a travel guide -- That was for propaganda, but it seems this was about the quality of operational planning in the Luftwaffe.
And besides the limitations of intelligence, there were the limitations of the Luftwaffe's bomber force. The German economy could not support a large strategic bomber force in addition to a large army, a large tactical air force, and a modest navy. After the 'Blitz' of 1941 the RAF provided an increasingly strong air defence, and when Luftwaffe returned to bomb Britain it could only do so in relatively small numbers. This excluded any offensive against the British war industry, which would have required large, repeated attacks on vital targets to have a real effect.
All they could attempt in the Baedeker raids and the Operation Steinbock raids of early 1944 was bombing cities in South England, mainly London of course, in the hope of achieving some psychological effect, getting a bit of propaganda value out of it, and satisfying Hitler's thirst for revenge. -
Message 4
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
my mother who lived in the rhondda Valley was sent to relations in bristol (where she worked in a munitions factory) as it was felt that the coal mines would be a target for the luftwaffe
what happened - bristol as a port was heavily bombed and the rhondda was left alone
she was sent home in 1941
st -
Message 5
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
staiteriisok, we had evacuees mainly from Kent early in the War and our area mining and by-products was considered a target. Village was bombed people, said they dropped their bombs to get away when being chased. If you had a bird's eye view of the village where the bombs landed very central, so being chased had little affect on their aim. Truth the first casualty of War.
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Message 6
Posted by MB (U177470) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
I suspect that the coal mines were not bombed just because they were not easy targets and there were many of them at that time. The South Wales valleys are not good places to aircraft to operate at low level at night and dangerous places during daylight with AA and fighters.
It would be very difficult to have much effect on production of coal.
MB -
Message 7
Posted by caveman1944 (U11305692) on Monday, 2nd March 2009
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ daily at 2.05pm THe World at WAr.
It has been on last week and I don't know if anything pror to that.
A pity if you have missed any of it, and it should be seen throughout by all, judging by this board.
I have made the point that for a nation at war, this country got off lightly in terms of the civil population. of course, any death is a serious matter and families affected would be outraged by such a statement, but there was a first year of phoney war, and air raids in 1940 were of relatively short duration and light. it was not until 1941 that they became heavier, and Liverpool was the target for that. However, the seIen nights blitz on liverpool was the last.it was a final attempt to deal a heavy blow before he went into Russia.
With Hitler stupidly going into Russia, he had to quit bombing, and having endured it myself , i was incredulous to find very late in life that while I had gone into Far EAst captivity, those on the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ FRont had an equivalent period of peace; work (wages ) pubs, cinemas and dance halls. Small wonder they enthused over the war and the spirit that prevailed. a great portion of the country lived in peace. there was a war on of course and they felt a part of it without knowing much about it.
The Baedecker raids were in retaliation for the bombing of Lubeck which outraged the GErmans.
Those raids were little
FRom August, 1940 to May, 1941, ten months of air
raids and those not a daily affair by any means.
ten months out of six years for those who were involved !
Why did we have four engined bombers? Because it was our only means of persuing war, and with legitimate targets delt with, a large bomber force could not be left sitting around, so that attcked anything to keep busy, and brought themselves into disgrace.
Good job Hitler didn't have four engined bombers!!!
Make the effort chaps and if you can't watch the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ, get it recorded.
John -
Message 8
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Monday, 2nd March 2009
Ivvy, I well remember before the War the headlines in the newspaper stating the Scrap Drive, preparations for War. If I remember correctly gas-masks were issued before the War started, Britain did have a little time to prepare for War but in no way able to mount a successful War against Germany. Britain still in the trench Warfare frame of mind knew full well France did not another War fought on their soil. In 1949 as a seaman in Rouen (sp?) French said the Germans were real gentlemen, British and Americans were not welcome there, perhaps certain pockets of occupation receptive of Germans.
During the War I travelled around Britain so had a good feel of the nation, every night celebration, Beer flowing like Wine? Money all over, many places never knew there was a War on, so many on the Make, but many did suffer. Women found they were sitting on a Gold Mine and made good use of it. Taxi drivers 'Robber Barons'. After the Years of Depression it was a welcome relief, being a teenage was able to note many things as people took no notice of you, where as an adult would carry authority
Britain sent Soldiers overseas poorly trained some Infantry without rifles, just men in uniform Germans highly trained with modern weapons. British said, "Germans Guns before Butter", the British had neither. In this day and age War should be a thing of the past, any country going to War to be totally destroyed and obliterated, the common people have no quarrel with their counterparts in other countries so seems senseless which it is. -
Message 9
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 2nd March 2009
petaluma any country going to War to be totally destroyed and obliteratedΒ Isn't this a contradiction? Who will destroy and obliterate countries going to war?
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Message 10
Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Monday, 2nd March 2009
Perhaps Hitler's alleged soft spot for Blackpool (see msg 1) dates from his also alleged visit to Liverpool in the 1920s.
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Message 11
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 2nd March 2009
Slightly off thread,but im sure that Blackpool wasnt the only "could have been target".Ive heard all sorts of "tall tails" about why Rugby (the town not the sport!) wasnt bombed.
(I add this because this is the neck of the woods where I come from)
Apparently,(according to Rugby urban legend,and Im not joking before some wag pipes in ! ,
)
Its because Hitler had a close friend who lived in the town and thats the reason why the town never recieved a single hit.(ok Dunchurch a local village copted a 250lb er,but it would appear he was aiming for Coventry!)
VF -
Message 12
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Friday, 6th March 2009
suvorovetz, note, 'any country', singular. in general its an aggressor that starts a war, unsure in modern times if countries agree to go to war with each other on an agreed date. Many thought the UN would have a powerful standing army ready to crush an aggressor if hostilities broke out, it now turns out a very ineffective de-clawed pussy cat. Many UN soldiers? having their rifles taken from them without firing a shot, called peace keeping. Many claim it stops war, may do that but certainly not the civilian killing. Of the UN, how can it be, with just five countries having veto power? Some United Nations.
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Message 13
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 6th March 2009
petaluma
suvorovetz, note, 'any country', singular. in general its an aggressor that starts a warΒ You will hardly find a conflict, in which you have consensus as to what side is an aggressor. You suggested for the UN to be a referee. Do you mean the Security Council or the General Assembly? What kind of enforcement army do you envision and who's going to man it, train it and pay for it. Are you going to forcefully disband all other armies and how? And if you accomplish all this somehow, would not this look like the Orwellian One World dictatorship with a nice UN blue helmet touch? -
Message 14
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Friday, 6th March 2009
suvorovetz, WW2 Germany and Japan, I would suggest were aggressors, (correct me if I'm sadly mistaken) (or were just fooling), Napoleon could be accused of being an aggressor, or was he just playing Games? Britain against the Boers (Britain's Concentration Camps causing the Deaths of over 42,000 innocent Women and Children) Britain's War against the Zulus, War Forced on them even after Zulus were prepared to grant Britain's Demands, America's War against Mexico, American's War against Spain. That is of coarse if you accept them as being such. Enough?
I did not suggest anything, (please don't give me credit when its not appropriate) I merely stated at the time the UN became into being, many around the world thought that would be the end of Wars between countries, and would be able to supply Force of Arms to counteract an aggressor. History is full of Aggressors. In fact as the nice Man said, "Too Numerous to Mention". I humbly request you read and understand what I type. Errors can be made you know! -
Message 15
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 6th March 2009
petaluma
suvorovetz, WW2 Germany and Japan, I would suggest were aggressors, (correct me if I'm sadly mistaken) (or were just fooling)Β You seem to be quite sure of that, and it is good. But, you know, they say that the guy who really made the difference for the allies was Stalin, whose government on September 18, 1939, declared in the official note that Poland was the aggressor. I will further cite Suvorov from his Icebreaker here - I just like the way he put it - "On November 30, 1919, in the Newspaper PRAVDA, Stalin called out more 'perpetrators', "England and France attacked Germany taking responsibility for the current war." On May 5, 1941, in his secret speech to the graduates of military academies, Stalin added Germany to the list. After the war the circle of 'perpetrators' grew even more. Stalin stated that all capitalist countries started the Second World War. Before the war all sovereign countries of the world, except the USSR, were considered capitalist by Stalin's measure." And yet, it did not preclude Stalin's lawyers from coordinating the hanging of German brass at Nuremberg. I don't know about you, but the logic of all this in the context of universal justice escapes me.
I humbly request you read and understand what I type. Errors can be made you know!Β You're not the first one here accusing me of being an idiot. Perhaps, you're on something here, although my IQ came up fairly decent last time I tried. Anomalies happen, however, so just bare with me, if you don't mind communicating with a simpleton. I don't know if it would be a problem for the "universal justice guy" like yourself. -
Message 16
Posted by FormerlyOldHermit (U3291242) on Friday, 6th March 2009
Whether Hitler visited Liverpool just before WWI all lies on supposed diaries made by the relative in Liverpool, his (half?) sister I think. From what I'm aware though, she and her family did live in Liverpool until just before WWII or up to a point in it. However, I seem to remember hearing also that her child had enlisted in the US Army and been used for propaganda also so I'm not too sure. There's also a local legend around Liverpool that quite ironically the sister's house was one of the last places to be bombed by the Luftwaffe.
Can anyone clarify or clear this up? -
Message 17
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Friday, 6th March 2009
suvorovetz, frankly I do not understand your rambling, are you obsessed with a sticky wicket ?, hole in one ? ( hole in 3 ? ) lost first and last base ? (not counting numbers lost in between) which is closest to the equator, the North or South Pole? at the Poles in how many directions can one walk ? (no points for that one) How many sandwiches are in one quart of soup ? What would happen to the London Tower clock if they lost Big Ben ? (more importantly, do you believe he would ever be found ?) May things to ponder in these Dark and Weary Days. What time does the Balloon go up ? Will we all be ready if ever it does ? So many questions too few correct answers.
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Message 18
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 6th March 2009
petaluma suvorovetz, frankly I do not understand your ramblingΒ That means only one thing: one of us is the idiot. We'll just leave it for the One World Opinion to decide, shall we? Cheers.
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Message 19
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Friday, 6th March 2009
suvorovetz, your wish is my command, could be two idiots, I've been called more serious forms than that.
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