Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
valkyrie
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by nastychestycough (U13796779) on Monday, 26th January 2009
Have just enjoyed this at the cinema.
Can anyone recommend a good book about this subject?
The book/movie 'tie-in' appears to be an extract from Kershaws fine book on Hitler and I was hoping for something more detailed.
In addition has anyone read 'The face of the third reich' by Joachim Fest,is it worth buying? -
Message 2
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 26th January 2009
"the July Plot" by Roger Manvell & Heinrich Fraenkel first published in 1964 which came out as a paperback in 1966 is an excellent brief account if you can still get hold of it.
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Message 3
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Tuesday, 27th January 2009
I enjoyed the film too and didn't think Cruise was too bad...!
Overall, I thought it was portrayal of what happened (based on my limited knowledge of the plot). I was wondering if there was anything worth reading out there - just done a quick Amazon search and there are a number of books out there:
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Message 4
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Tuesday, 27th January 2009
Also these:
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Message 5
Posted by GeneralDreedle (U1705272) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Does anyone know if it has actually been proved that Erich Fellgiebel actually did inform the conspiritors that Hitler had survived the explosion?. Some books i have read say that he did while others say he informed them that the bomb had gone off and Hitler was dead. Any clarification on this would be much appreciated. I have to say i thought the film was very good.
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Message 6
Posted by nastychestycough (U13796779) on Wednesday, 28th January 2009
Many thanks for the pointers. I really enjoyed the film. I also like the fact that there were no faux - "Vee Veel Keel Heetler!" - 'German' accents in it.
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Message 7
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 29th January 2009
I also like the fact that there were no faux - "Vee Veel Keel Heetler!" - 'German' accents in it.Μύ
The film has been critisised for NOT having German accents in it, or for not being made in the German language. -
Message 8
Posted by nastychestycough (U13796779) on Monday, 2nd February 2009
I certainly don't agree with such criticism. For instance- Schindlers list was a fine film,but when screened in Germany, a lot of viewers felt the English language cod-German accents were absurd.
I wonder if continental films in, say French or German, about American themes ask their actors graft a 'Yankee' twang onto their french or German delivery. Ridiculous. -
Message 9
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 2nd February 2009
Re: Message 8.
Nastychestycough (what a nom de plume),
welcome to the boards.
On the continent in Belgium I saw on TV some French dubbed American cowboyfilms with an American? English? accent. I was glad that in the cinema it were the original soundtracks with French and Dutch subtitles.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 10
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
Accents / Languages ??
Nobody does it as well as "'Allo, 'allo" on the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ. Sheer genius! -
Message 11
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 5th February 2009
The film uses a ploy of opening with German language dialogue and then consciously switching to the actors' own English/American accents. This is about as honest a compromise as is possible since it informs the audience that no attempt is being made to infer that the characters really spoke English, or that the producer/director should have you believe that they or the actors were unaware of the dilemma.
As giraffe47's point illustrates, the ploy of using an accented English to illustrate a foreign tongue belongs to comedy. An otherwise good film, "Rommel, The Desert Fox", way back in 1951 for example suffered from too many variations of pseudo German accents. -
Message 12
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 5th February 2009
The film uses a ploy of opening with German language dialogue and then consciously switching to the actors' own English/American accents. This is about as honest a compromise as is possible since it informs the audience that no attempt is being made to infer that the characters really spoke English, or that the producer/director should have you believe that they or the actors were unaware of the dilemma.
Μύ
That same ploy was used at the beginning of Hunt for Red October with Sean Connery speaking in Russian with it merging into English - I always thought it was an effective ploy and having seen Valkyrie I have no complaints with the actors speaking in their native accents.
On a similar theme, I remember Troy which had Sean Bean speaking in an RP accent (or his attempt at one) which made me smile. I wondered why a Yorkshireman feels the need to portray characters from a different culture and linguistic background from several thousand years ago in an accent that isn't his. It wasn't as though the other actors in the film were speaking with cod-Greek accents! -
Message 13
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Thursday, 5th February 2009
That same ploy was used at the beginning of Hunt for Red October with Sean Connery speaking in Russian with it merging into EnglishΜύ The problem with Red October, some James Bond movies, etc, where they have a bunch of Russian characters lurching around, is this: some of them speak clean Russian and some are obviously coached to speak a phrase or two, but it comes out horrendously mangled. It is funny, of course, on top of being distractive.
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Message 14
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 5th February 2009
When Ron Ely played Tarzan in the 1960s TV series the whole of Ireland was once aghast to find that in one episode the Mugalubba tribe, deep in the darkest jungle of the Warner Brothers back-lot, spoke quite an impressive Irish - albeit with a Munster brogue.
The Evening Herald newspaper made enquiries on our behalf and found that the "dialogue coach" for that episode was an ex-pat by the name of Murphy. Apparently the producers were very impressed with his work on that show - they marvelled at how he had conjured up almost an entire language which sounded so authentically African to boot!
I can still remember the chieftain greeting Tarzan with the Irish "hello" "Dia Dhuit" (God To You), to which Tarzan replied quite correctly "Dia's Muire Duitse" (God and Mary To You). Bloody thorough job those missionaries did! -
Message 15
Posted by WarsawPact (U1831709) on Thursday, 5th February 2009
In the film "Sign Of The Pagan", Jack Palance's Atilla The Hun encounters two men on the road to Rome.
Asking them who they are, one of them replies in a John Wayne-style Texan drawl; "Wur pulgrims from the Laand of the Scaats"
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Message 16
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Friday, 6th February 2009
The best example of inappropriate accents I think occurred in the 1986 film "Highlander" by two actors who appeared to be impervious to the efforts of dialect coaches (if they ever used them) throughout their careers, when Christopher Lambert, as a heavily French-accented Scotsman, is trying to explain to Sean Connery, playing a Spanish nobleman, what haggis is. However I think there was a considerable amount of irony, an unusual quality to be found in a Hollywood film, in play in this scene.
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Message 17
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Friday, 6th February 2009
Hi Nordmann, is that where the black Irish came from?
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Message 18
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 6th February 2009
I believe that comes from Bushmills Distillery, bttdp.
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Message 19
Posted by petaluma (U10056951) on Friday, 6th February 2009
Some years watched a film on TV, it had already started but I thought the local was England, the actors were speaking English with heavy French accents, I thought they were going too far as a typical English film and thought at least they should lighten up on the accents. The film was worth watching so stuck with it. At the end of the film reading the credits they were French actors. What a surprise, a too hasty judgment, (best not to criticize before knowing the facts)
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Message 20
Posted by nastychestycough (U13796779) on Friday, 6th February 2009
In the film 'The 13th warrior' the main protaganist- an Arab - is shown in snapshot scenes to be carefully listening to his newfound companions- Norsemen- over a period of time and as he assimilates their language it changes from Norse to English. Very well done I thought, especially as in previous scenes he had had to use Latin with some of them to communicate.
In addition (and slightly off-thread) some years ago I read a 9th century witness account of a Viking funeral, and this had been written by an Arab or Persian (it was in the 'Faber book of reportage'. There is a scene in the film that could have been lifted straight from that account. I wonder if the author -Michael Crichton- was guilty of plagiarism 1000 years after the fact?
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