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In search of the real Claus Von Stauffenberg.

• Message 1. 

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 23rd January 2009

  In the new Hollywood film about Stauffenberg and the July plot, Tom Cruise (Von Stauffenberg)utters the following stirring line, having witnessed the abuse of prisoners on the Eastern front:-
  "My duty is no longer to serve Germany. I must now serve humanity" 
  This, by contrast, is an exert from a letter Von Stauffenberg sent to his wife Nina after the invasion of Poland:-
  Die Bevölkerung ist ein unglaublicher Pöbel, sehr viele Juden und sehr viel Mischvolk. Ein Volk, welches sich nur unter der Knute wohlfühlt. Die Tausenden von Gefangenen werden unserer Landwirtschaft recht gut tun. (The population here are unbelievable rabble; a great many Jews and a lot of mixed race. A people that is only comfortable under the lash. The thousands of prisoners will serve our agriculture well.) 
  What were the motives of the real Von Stauffenberg?
  Was he a humanitarian saint or a snooty aristocrat offended by Hitler's vulgarity?
  
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by curiousdigger (U13776378) on Friday, 23rd January 2009

  I don't know for sure about von Stauffenberg, but I've been reading Albert Speer's memoirs and it appears that he became increasingly disillusioned with Hitler after having been very ill, and not being in such close quarters to Hitler's entourage and all their intrigues etc for some time. He also says that the orders to destroy much of Germany's infrastructure (the scorched earth policy I think) played a part in this. I wonder if the same can be siad for the 20th July plotters? In that perhaps distance from the close circle of advisers around Hitler lead somewhat to a gaining of perspective (so to speak)?

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Friday, 23rd January 2009

  By 20 July 1944 the situation for the Nazi regime must have looked dire; the Normandy bridgehead had succeeded and the Russian advance in the east was unstoppable. By then, rational minds must have been thinking about the prospect of negotiating with the West, but many still clung to the fuhrer's reputation of old and hoped for a sudden reversal of fortune. It would have helped if it had been more generally known that Hitler, faced with defeat, was not going to be rational and in these circumstances he would attempt to lead Germany towards its utter destruction.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 23rd January 2009

  By 20 July 1944 the situation for the Nazi regime must have looked dire  No kidding. German Minister of Munitions Fritz Todt had told Hitler that the war was lost in economic and military terms as early as at the end of 1941. By 1944 it should have gotten through some really thick skulls, one would think.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Friday, 23rd January 2009

  Like most of those opposed to Hitler dating back to the 1930's, especially the military, they went along with everything whilst they were winning and as soon as everything went sour they thought they'd try and save their own necks.
  
  The Allies decided at the Moscow Conference in October 1943 that the only terms they would accept from thee Axis Powers were those of unconditional surrender. Therefore had the plotters succeded they wouldn't have had anything to negotiate other than the total defeat of Germany, which may not have been acceptable to the plotters themselves, never mind the OKW, OKH, OKL, OKM or even the 'Landser' on the ground.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Friday, 23rd January 2009

  The plotters were as anti-Communist as the Nazis were and wanted to make peace with the Western Allies in order to prosecute the war against the Soviet Union more effectively. They had previously made contact with the British through Admiral Canaris, head of the Abwehr, who was effectively an MI6 agent and who was arrested and later shot in the aftermath of the plot.
  
  However, after learning of their intentions, Churchill ordered that all contact be broken off for fear that Stalin might find out (a well-grounded anxiety bearing in mind that Burgess, Maclean and Philby were then all supplying the KGB with information from within the Foreign Office) and assume that the Western Allies were negotiatiating a compromise peace which he might use as an excuse to negotiate one with Hitler himself.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  Steelers The Allies decided at the Moscow Conference in October 1943 that the only terms they would accept from thee Axis Powers were those of unconditional surrender.  I would not rule out an alternative route. In fact, Allen Dulles was trying to negoriate a separate deal with Karl Wolff to the bitter end, as I remember. If you step back and look back at numerous negotiations everybody had been engaged in in 1939, by August Stalin had blown off his future "Allies" and had signed the pact with Hitler. "Any way the wind blows," as in the famous song goes.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  I don't know that much about the person of von Stauffenberg, but I can comment in more general terms: Most of the opposition to Hitler in the officer corps originated from conservative aristocrats. Many were almost hereditary civil servants or officers. The von Stauffenbergs could track by their lineage back to the 13th century. The Prussian "Junker" so despised by Hitler belonged to a nobility of small landowners which had traditionally supplied officers to the army.
  
  These men were often well-educated, literate, religious, and extremely patriotic. Decent men by their own moral standards, but that did not stop them from looking down on everyone else, and they shared the anti-Semitic prejudices of many conservative Europeans in the 1930s. They were hardly pacifists; most of them wanted to avenge the defeat of 1918 and undo the peace settlement of Versailles. Especially in the east of Germany, were Poland had been extended at the cost of Germany. War and victories suited these men very well.
  
  Therefore, these men had goals in common with the Nazis. German conservatives had brought Hitler to power in 1933, by entering a government coalition with a NSDAP that was already in decline --- Von Papen regarded Hitler as a useful weapon against the socialists and communists. But on the other hand, they had almost no values in common with them. They were conservative Christians and patriots; the Nazis were revolutionaries who despised traditional religion and values. When the Nazis effected a coup from above, the conservatives learnt the cost of their pact with the devil. Von Papen spent much of the war in semi-exile as a diplomat, narrowly escaping assassination. Senior military leaders such as Beck, von Fritsch and Blomberg were removed in an underhand manner and replace by more pliant figures.
  
  Hence, almost from the start a mutual loathing existed between the Nazis and this traditional officer class. They were German aristocrats; Hitler was a nobody from Austria. They were officers and gentlemen; Hitler was an ill-mannered genocidal maniac. They were professionals; the commander-in-chief was very clearly an amateur, and so were many of his cronies. Overall, these men acted from a complex blend of aristocratic snootiness and humanitarian feeling.
  
  

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  Re: Message 7.
  
  Suvoretz,
  
  "Allan Dulles and Karl Wolff" Yes, you seem to be right as I found out among others in this URL:
  
  
  
  Tried more than a quarter of an hour with ://www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/SS-Obergruppenf%FChrer%20und%20General%20der%20Waffen-SS%20Karl%20Wolff2.htm and although the link is correct (I checked it more than 10 times) it doesn't work
  
  Click on the index under SS-officers on "SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS Karl Friedrich Otto Wolff. It is the "next page" after the photographs.
  
  Yes sometimes for I don't know what reasons URL's seem not to work on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ messageboard.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  Re: Message 8.
  
  Mutatis Mutandis,
  
  thank you very much for this enlightening and to the point message. And yes, a message in the usual manner.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  Re: message 6.
  
  Allan,
  
  about your last paragraph and thank you BTW for the whole message.
  
  That fear of Churchill...(a well-grounded anxiety...)
  Yes, that's new for me. I hadn't thought about it nor read about it from that point of view.
  
  That Roosevelt held the boat off for the American business man also coming with proposals from Canaris can perhaps have had the same reason's as the British did with the British contact from Canaris. (I forgot his name. The name is mentioned in Heinz Höhne's "Hitler's Master Spy")?
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  The Czech Paul Thummel:
  
  

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  Hi, Paul Yes sometimes for I don't know what reasons URL's seem not to work on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ messageboard. 
  It has to be copied exactly to the letter, like this:
  
  
  Â鶹ԼÅÄ site is a spoiled creature, you know.

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  It has to be copied exactly to the letter, like this:
  ·É·É·É.²õ±è±ð³¦¾±²¹±ô³¦²¹³¾±è11.´Ú²õ...Ìý still does not work
  Â鶹ԼÅÄ site is a spoiled creature, you know  Indeed

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 24th January 2009

  Re: 13.
  
  Suvoretz,
  
  if you click on my URL of message 9 it's works. You have only to do the steps I mentioned...
  
  
  Yes and it works again as I just checked:
  www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/index.html
  
  Warm regards from your friend,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 25th January 2009

  Many thanks for all the above contributions and links. Especial thanks for MM's scholarly analysis and Alan D's observations.
  
  Strangely, I find the link in Paul's message 15 works perfectly while the identical link in SUV's M 11 leads to "web page not found". No matter, we now have access to the 'Bridgend files'.
  
  It seems that there were many internal and external plots to displace Hitler. Some going back well before the surrender at Stalingrad, the point, surely, when most rational observers would have realised that German defeat was just a matter of time?
  
  If Canaris was MI6's 'man on the inside', could it be that General Von Seydlitz was expected to be Stalin's equivalent?
  On re-reading Beevor's 'Berlin: The Downfall', last week, I came across this on page 69.
  "Even General Von Seydlitz, (then in Russian custody with Paulus and Strecker, my addition) who had proposed the airlift of German prisoners of war to start a revolution within the Reich..." (that was Jan 1945) 
  According to Russian analysis of bugged conversations between the three captive senior officers, there had been enthusism for another 'officer class' putsch against Hitler, backed by the Russians. This plan was gaining momentum until word reached the POW's that Churchill was supporting Stalin's plans for a puppet post-war Poland's expansion westwards to absorb much of Germany's territory in the (German) East.
  On learning that Churchill had pulled the rug from under their hope for an honourable end to the war, the German generals were in utter despair (This from Paulus):-
  "The whole of Germany will now become a gigantic Stalingrad"... "Why has God become so angry with Germany? 

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• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Sunday, 25th January 2009

  Pilot If Canaris was MI6's 'man on the inside', could it be that General Von Seydlitz was expected to be Stalin's equivalent? 
  From what I read, this does not even begin to describe the complexity of the intelligence and counter intelligence webs between all parties involved. John Loftus (who himself used to be a military lawyer for the Pentagon, or something like that) described the so-called 'Red Orchestra' crew of Jewish agents employed by Canaris and Stalin at the same time. Loftus claimed that - quite ironically - toward the end of the war all their information ended up in Ben Gurion's possession (J. Loftus and M. Aarons, The Secret War Against the Jews).
  

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• Message 18

  , in reply to message 17.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 25th January 2009

  Thanks SUV.
  
  Loftus sounds most interesting.
  I shall hasten to 'Amazon' to try to bag a copy

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