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has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 1.聽
Posted by Grumpypinkgirl (U13784563) on Thursday, 22nd January 2009
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Message 2
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Friday, 23rd January 2009
Grumpypinkgirl
Far from it. The tensions in Spain had been simmering for decades鈥
The Spanish Civil war was never Fascist Vs Socialist 鈥 Far from it. There were many groups on either side.
The SCW was used as a proxy war by some nations (Italy, Germany) a money making exercise (Soviet Union) and an attempt at complying by the rules set down (Great Britain, France).Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 3
Posted by Nielsen2 (U13686196) on Friday, 23rd January 2009
Grumpypinkgirl
Added to Mani's reply, there were loads of old revolutions, revolutionaries, risings, raisers, and coups d'etat all over the place.
If you're still interested you might look back in the annals of these boards - both W & C as well as HH - there are quite some discussions you might wish to look at.Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 4
Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Friday, 23rd January 2009
I read somewhere that it had its origins from the time when the Dandylion and the unicorn lay down together!
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Message 5
Posted by Grumpypinkgirl (U13784563) on Friday, 23rd January 2009
so why did Great Britian get in the Spanish Civil War and did lots of young people go over to Spain and fight for the Republican side or did they fight for Franco
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Message 6
Posted by Nielsen2 (U13686196) on Friday, 23rd January 2009
Grumpypinkgirl
Not being British I can't answer your question as they don't seem to compare to what I've read of various revolutions and civil wars in Spain.
Perhaps you'd care to tell what you seem to know so comparisons may be madeLink to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 7
Posted by ambi (U13776277) on Friday, 23rd January 2009
Britain was neutral during the Spanish Civil War, with perhaps a government bias towards Franco. Lots of British fought for the International Brigade, a group of volunteers. A much smaller number fought for the Nationalists (Franco).
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Message 8
Posted by Nielsen2 (U13686196) on Friday, 23rd January 2009
dukess2008
What you writes here apppears much more in accordance with what is readily accepted as historical facts of the Spansh Civil War 1936 - 39 than what the Original Poster claimed, so you're much more entitled to a reasonable answer when you raise a question.
That hitherto not 'kent' historical points may be acknowledged could well be due to them being substantiated where previously just claimed.Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 9
Posted by ambi (U13776277) on Saturday, 24th January 2009
Sorry, my reply was to Grumpypinkgirl's second question. As to the first, no I would not say that the Spanish Civil War kicked off WW11. However the evolution of Blitzkrieg in battle situations by the Condor Legion was invaluable, as was the confidence inspired by their successes. From 1933 (and possibly before) Hitler was constantly testing the water as to what he could get away with, and by 1939 he was sure of Germany's capabilities, and pretty sure of his enemies' weaknesses and vacillations.
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Message 10
Posted by laudian (U13735323) on Sunday, 25th January 2009
Did the Spanish civil War really kick off the Second World War?聽
To my mind yes! There was a struggle against fascism and nationalism, all over the world.i.e.Mexico, Mahkno in the Ukraine, The Red Week in Vienna,The Struggles in Spain against the Right and the re-action of the working class in Spain against the Spanish Right Wing, both nationalist and fascist. Hitler wouldn't have let the Anarchists and the Socialists defeat his allies in Iberia. The only reason the British Ruling class took Hitler on was because it was thought that Hitler wanted large parts of the Empire. Even then the British did not call upon the Spanish left to rise against Franco though they knew that he was supporting the Nazis. They were left fighting the wrong side from their point of view!
LfdLink to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 11
Posted by Essexroundhead (U5331128) on Sunday, 25th January 2009
A country with a legitimate Socialist government was attacked by a right wing faction attempting to establish an unelected ruler. Many young men found this a cause worth fighting for hence the number of men from other countries who flocked there to fight for the Government. For an excellent personal account read George Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia',his experience of fighting in the war plus the politics which led to the disintegration of the communist/anarchist/marxist, etc. popular front which contributed to the Government defeat.
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Message 12
Posted by laudian (U13735323) on Sunday, 25th January 2009
Britain was neutral during the civil war!聽
The British Government applied a sorry attempt at neutrality which allowed Mussolini and Hitler to help Franco in a most obvious fashion, whilst our leaders kept the lid on a simmering anger against fascism and the right wing in this country.
In the mean time hundreds if not thousands of young men and women went to offer their assistance to the Left Government and their allies, the POUM and the Bolsheviks!The anarchist Fai and the CNT, didn't encourage overseas volunteers for the armed forces.
The British Government was torn between sympathy for Franco but some dismay at his allies. It was one thing to crush the working class, but to give experience to the Nazis at a time when the ruling class of Britain knew that their turn would come soon, was another.Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 13
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 26th January 2009
laudian.
"the re-action of the working class in Spain against the Spanish Right Wing"
This is incorrect, it was not the working class. Carlists, Royalists, Fallangists were working class also.
The Class system and political positioning in SPain at the time was far more complicated.
"The only reason the British Ruling class took Hitler on was because it was thought that Hitler wanted large parts of the Empire"
Completely the opposite. Hitler confirmed that we woanted the Empire to remain if he was given a free hand in Europe. Many members of the 'ruling class' supported the ideals of National socialism.
"Even then the British did not call upon the Spanish left to rise against Franco though they knew that he was supporting the Nazis" That's because the British Government didn't support the left? Franco didn't support the German government - He refused help?Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 14
Posted by laudian (U13735323) on Monday, 26th January 2009
Spain in the run up to the Civil War聽
Mani!
The Anarchist Trade Union, (The CNT,) alone had over 2 million members!
The UGT, the Socialists group had over a million. This at a time when the most advanced ,'democracy,'Britain could just about scrape up enough to keep the organisation going. France had more members than Britain but a weak Socialist Government hamstrung them!
What about the attempts to bring about a workers paradise in Catalonia, Valencia and such places?
Why did the youth of Britain go to join the POUM and the International Brigades? For the 36 Olympics?
It was not the working class聽
It was though and more, it was chiefly the anarchist supporting working class that stopped the army!Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 15
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 26th January 2009
Why did the youth of Britain go to join the POUM and the International Brigades?聽
Yeah right.
My granddad was in his 20s in 1936 and an active member of the T&G. He said that he never heard of any of his friends, colleagues or aquaintances who went to fight in Spain. The Spanish civil war was just an item on the newsreels - like Afghanistan now.Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 16
Posted by laudian (U13735323) on Monday, 26th January 2009
Vizzer,
IN the town where I live two at least went to Spain and one Frank Drinkwater died at jarama.On the other side of the hill another, a woman, went to serve in a medical unit. There were plenty willing to go. The Northern Voices magazine has just published its 3rd ed, of a magazine recording the local youth who went and records all those they know who died!Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 17
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 26th January 2009
A bit like all those who (years later) claimed to have been in the General Post Office in Dublin on Easter Monday 1916 ... enough to fill a stadium several times over.
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Message 18
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 27th January 2009
Laudin,
Your stance is contradictory.
鈥淭his at a time when the most advanced ,'democracy,' Britain could just about scrape up enough to keep the organisation going鈥 It鈥檚 because Britain was a relatively stable democracy that we didn鈥檛 need Anarchist organisations 鈥 To judge how far advance a democracy is by the levels in such organisations is bizarre, almost paradoxical?
Spanish politics was far more polarized and complicated than the UK.
鈥淭he Anarchist Trade Union, (The CNT,) alone had over 2 million members鈥
It peaked at 1.4 million. That was before the war in 1934.
鈥淭he UGT, the Socialists group had over a million.鈥
Not by the time of the war it didn鈥檛.
鈥淔rance had more members than Britain鈥 The relevance is zero???
鈥淲hat about the attempts to bring about a workers paradise in Catalonia, Valencia and such places?鈥 What about them? The fact that they failed says it all! Are you suggesting that the entire country other than the Army in North Africa was nationalist?
鈥淲hy did the youth of Britain go to join the POUM and the International Brigades? For the 36 Olympics?鈥
THE Youth didn鈥檛, some youth did. The British contingency NEVER peaked 2000. This says it all really.
The Irish Battalion fighting FOR Franco was over three times of that of the Irish Brigade fighting as part of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. It鈥檚 a simple fact that there were more volunteers for the Nationalists than Republicans. Who do you think made up the formations of the Spanish Foreign Legion during the war?
This FACT rubbishes your claims.
As I have already said, which class do you think supported the Fallange? Do you think Carlists were all middle class? Most of the nationalist groups were not fascist or Aristocratic. Many were simply religious.
鈥淚t was though and more, it was chiefly the anarchist supporting working class that stopped the army!鈥
No it wasn鈥檛! The Civil Guard had a more significant impact militarily than the Anarchist rabble.
鈥淚N the town where I live two at least went to Spain and one Frank Drinkwater died at jarama.On the other side of the hill another, a woman, went to serve in a medical unit. There were plenty willing to go鈥 That鈥檚 three, not plenty!Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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Message 19
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Tuesday, 27th January 2009
鈥淲hat about the attempts to bring about a workers paradise in Catalonia, Valencia and such places?鈥 What about them? The fact that they failed says it all! Are you suggesting that the entire country other than the Army in North Africa was nationalist聽
Correction, Republican.Link to this forum: has the Spanish Civil war did really kick off the Second world war
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