Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Wars and ConflictsΒ  permalink

Jacobite success at Culloden

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by sailor-gerry (U13663534) on Friday, 16th January 2009

  Hi all, from previous reading it seems a given that the Jacobites made a catalogue of errors at Culloden. Even if they had won that battle was defeat only a matter of time due to a lack of money/French/broad support or could they have realistically ever have beaten the government forces. What does the forum reckon?
  Apologies if this has been covered before.
  Cheers
  G
  

  Link to this forum: Jacobite success at Culloden

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Saturday, 17th January 2009

  I have always understood that it was the moment they decided to turn back from Derby that their defeat became inevitable. London was in a state of panic, and if the advance had continued who knows what might have been the result.

  Link to this forum: Jacobite success at Culloden

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Saturday, 17th January 2009

  Probably the best chance the Jacobites had was in 1745, after the march to Derby.
  
  If they had carried on, it seems they would have have been able to capture London. However, it wasn't to be, and they withdrew to Scotland, the Highlands, and eventual defeat.

  Link to this forum: Jacobite success at Culloden

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Saturday, 17th January 2009

  sailor-gerry,
  In case you are unaware of it, if you look on p2 of 'Wars and Conflicts' you will find a thread entitled 'Battle of Culloden'. This will presumably be of interest to you.

  Link to this forum: Jacobite success at Culloden

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by laudian (U13735323) on Wednesday, 21st January 2009

  sailor -gerry
  Msg 1.
  
  
  The trouble was the Hannoverians had the system with them, as badly organised as it was.It was better than that used by the Jacobites.
  If the Histories I read are anything to go by, the French were finally getting their act together, as were the Welsh.London and the West were stirring as well. There was a small army left in Scotland and more waiting! The trouble was there was no co-ordination!
  This had been the trouble in 1715, no lack of support,but very little co-ordination!
  For myself, if they had captured London, quite possibly the enemy would have fled back to Germany and the Establishment either followed them or gone quiet. Note the Government couldn't raise troops with any ease and were recruiting mercenaries. There were quite a few desertions from the Army and the London Council of Aldermen were active, as I understand trying to sabotage the economic system! But nothing succeeds like success and after derby success was on the short side for the Jacobites!

  Link to this forum: Jacobite success at Culloden

  Report message5

• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 21st January 2009

  If the Histories I read are anything to go by, the French were finally getting their act together, as were the Welsh.London and the West were stirring as well. There was a small army left in Scotland and more waiting! The trouble was there was no co-ordination!
  This had been the trouble in 1715, no lack of support,but very little co-ordination!
  For myself, if they had captured London, quite possibly the enemy would have fled back to Germany and the Establishment either followed them or gone quiet. Note the Government couldn't raise troops with any ease and were recruiting mercenaries. There were quite a few desertions from the Army and the London Council of Aldermen were active, as I understand trying to sabotage the economic system! But nothing succeeds like success and after derby success was on the short side for the Jacobites! Β 
  
  I've come to the opposite conclusion that the English and Welsh Jacobites were all mouth and no trousers. There was a lot of talk and hints of plots, but the pro-Jacobite north west had plenty of opportunity to join the Jacobites as they marched through, yet a mere 400 did so. And they later claimed that they were unemployed weavers who'd decided to join whichever side reached Manchester first! Even in Scotland, there was much shirking of Jacobites following their resounding success at Prestonpans. They managed at most 12,000 men at Falkirk which is very low following several months of the Jacobites having almost free reign to recruit. In the 1560s, Scott of Buccleuch alone raised 3,000 men just to thieve a load of cows fro Northumberland!
  
  My view is that by 1745 Jacobism was already a spent cause. It had moved on from being a real desire to do something to bring James back, to a mere trendy political stance for those discontented with the government, or youth rebelling against their fathers. None of them outside Scotland really seem to have been willing to lift a finger for the cause. Of course they'd have been on the streets celebrating their loyalty after the Jacobites had won, but just not bothered enough to make it happen.
  
  The Government had many problems, but blue coat volunteer regiments sprang up across the entire land representing at least as much "support" for the Hanoverians as there was for the Jacobites.
  
  Personally I think London could have been defended until the government's regular armies arrived to trap the Jacobites against an unfriendly region.

  Link to this forum: Jacobite success at Culloden

  Report message6

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by laudian (U13735323) on Friday, 23rd January 2009

  English and Welsh Jacobites....all mouth and no trousers!Β 
  
  Could be true!
  
  But personally I think you're a bit hard on them!
  After all, 1744 was the year for the Rising.The work was done and the co-ordination was all over,all that was needed was the French support! It didn't arrive and everyone went home.
  
  Charles took a risk and it didn't come off. Yet even so things did begin to move. Manchester and the area to the west of Lancashire raised 300 men.
  The Welsh ,according to some sources went as far as they could, only to find their friends had turned back.I was told that the West Country was stirring,(Petrie). All this inspite of the Governments fast work in arresting suspects.(Underhill?) Certainly the Bourbons were taking their time, but there was movement. Trouble was it wasn't enough! They didn,t have the time! Caution was essential, but it played the Governments game.

  Link to this forum: Jacobite success at Culloden

  Report message7

Back to top