Wars and Conflicts permalink
If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Friday, 16th January 2009
If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
U1683040 replied to my 'If there'd been no WW1 etc'
(1) An interesting "what-if", and if you think about it logically, with no WW1, you've got no WW2.
No Hitler, no Nazis, no holocaust, no destruction of the Ottoman Empire, no Armenian genocide, no atomic bomb, no Iraq, no Saudi Arabia, no Jordan, no Syria, no Yemen, no fall of the European Colonial empires, no Soviet Union, no Gulag, no space-race, no Cold War, and probably no Israel.
(2) Not entirely sure about the political side of this post though - "whereby we were massively beholden to Jewry" could be quoted from Der Sturmer, so that makes for somewhat uncomfortable reading....
-------o(reply)o---------
<<>> .... well perhaps not the 'Hitler War' as such ; in view of the fact that German grievances arising from WW1 did precipitate WW2 .... but surely a global war was in the making ? the great egalitarian socialist/communist experiment would still have come into being in Russia ; provoking an eventual warring confrontation ; in which would figure the atomic and then hydrogen bomb .... the development of which animals is inevitable on any planet as developed as ours .... and, as you correctly say, there'd still be no Israel.
---
Yes, badly put by me <<<"whereby we were massively beholden to Jewry">>> ... obviously I meant that WW1 had put us in enormous debt to many Jewish Banking houses including the Rothschilds .... and of course we were at the same time enormously indebted to Chaim Weizman for his development of acetone in Manchester University - which made our high explosive shells just as deadly as the german ones.
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 2
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 16th January 2009
obviously I meant that WW1 had put us in enormous debt to many Jewish Banking houses including the RothschildsÂ
The creation of Israel certainly has more to do with Rockefeller, who was not Jewish at all, than it is with Rothshcilds. Rockefeller was the one who delivered the votes for Israel in the UN. He did it not because he was particularly passionate about the plight of the European Jewry, but because Ben Gurion threatened Rockefeller with the evidence that the latter had repeatedly violated Trading with the Enemy Act.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 3
Posted by lemmylad (U13671858) on Friday, 16th January 2009
Hi Alecalgo
firstly may I thank you for revising your original post I read it at lunch time and was quite annoyed at it, as I was at work I didn't have time to reply just as well as it would have been quite a stinging one and in the light of your revision unneccessary.
Still trying to get my head around your OP and while I am not Jewish myself still get the feeling you are being anti semitic (may be not intentionally but thats the way it comes across.
With reference to your last paragraph You could say WW1 left us beholden to the banking Industry the fact that quite a few banks at the time were owned by Jews is neither here nor there. Never heard of Chaim Weizman before but again the fact that he was jewish doesn't matter he was presumably a British Citizen who did his bit for the war effort the same as if he had been Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, White, black or sky blue pink.
Agree with your conclussion that even without WW1 there would have been another World War (but in a different form).
I'm newish to the boards myself and don't want to discourage you from posting but some of your points are a little tricky to say the least
as we say in my part of the world Gan Canny (be careful or maybe thoughtful)
Kind Regards
LemmyladLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 4
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
Hi Lemmy,
By the sound of it you have only a slight knowledge of history. To pick up on just one point. You don't know who chaim weizeman was ?! Wow ! I find that surprising .. ok, you may not have the history books thatI have ... but you could have at least broadened your limited knowledge by cheating. So here goes ... the Google answer (as in my books ... as I knew 50 years ago)is :- he was one of the first Zionist leaders, President of the World Zionist Organization, and the first President of the State of Israel. ... more importantly he was one of the principal catalysts in the formation of the land for Israel movement.
cheers
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 5
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
Hi suvorovetz,
What has Rockefeller got to do with first principles. As I said .. if there had been no Allenby crusade north from Egypt to take Jerusalem in WW1 ... there would have been no Israel and the Ottoman Empire would have remained intact.
cheers
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 6
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
alecalgo
Hi suvorovetz,
What has Rockefeller got to do with first principles. As I said .. if there had been no Allenby crusade north from Egypt to take Jerusalem in WW1 ... there would have been no IsraelÂ
First principles? Not sure what those are. But your premise above looks to me like those weather models linking hurricanes at Caribbean to a butterfly in India. I say, it's a stretch. I say, Rockefeller has much more to do with Israel than Rothschilds.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 7
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
Hi there again suvorovetz,
You said :-
<<>>
-------o(reply)o--------
I am not arguing that minor point ! I am saying that there would have been no Israel if the Brit armies under General Allenby had not gone north from Egypt to capture Jerusalem in 1917.
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 8
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
alecalgo
I am saying that there would have been no Israel if the Brit armies under General Allenby had not gone north from Egypt to capture Jerusalem in 1917Â
Perhaps, there would be no Great Britain had the Romans not gone north to capture those islands. Now that I think abouit it, Â鶹ԼÅÄ might not even be around.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 9
Posted by lemmylad (U13671858) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
Hi Alec
I would like to think that I have more than a slight Knowledge of History, but obviously like anyone else I don't know every thing. I made what I considered to be a polite reply to your opening post its a pity you couldn't have done the same with mine.
Judging by your reaction to other posters on this thread I feel that my intuitions about you are right and won't be taking any further part in this discussion.
Best Wishes (and I mean that sincerely)
LemmyLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 10
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
Hi there again Suvy man,
You returned my below quote in a nice shiny silver box ... how is that done ?
<<>>
==================
You said :-
Perhaps, there would be no Great Britain had the Romans not gone north to capture those islands. Now that I think abouit it, Â鶹ԼÅÄ might not even be around.
-------reply--------
as equally fatuous ...perhaps there would have been no earth if the sun did not exist ?
No not fatuous or silly my effort ... the british isles, the sun, the earth ... all are solid organic objects. Whereas Israel ... from the 70ad destruction of the 2nd Temple and the eviction of the jews, remained (until Allenby's capture of Jerusalem made possible much dreaming and scheming) a subjective long-time-ago-in-the-past concept handed down father to son. To many jews still (those non-zionists who are scared of being tarnished anew by the gaza tragedy) twere an idealised past and nothing more : the very food of life which sustained body and soul of the scattered yet most intelligent race on earth and brought them into their present success in nearly every land on earth. Oh that we Brits could stick together so ... ?
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 11
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
alecalgo
To many jews still (those non-zionists who are scared of being tarnished anew by the gaza tragedy) twere an idealised past and nothing more So, as others here correctly guessed, all this convoluted pseudo-historical preamble was put together to weigh in on the conflict in progress. Pretty nifty way to get around the rules of this board, I give you that.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 12
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
Hi there again suvy man,
you said:-
<<>>
-------o(reply)o----------
Convoluted ....? You said :-
'just the same way there'd be no UK if the Romans had not invaded'; as answer to my contention <<>>
So that, Suvy, leaves us both in absolute agreement with one another ...there'd be no Israel and no UK (well not the unpatriotic thickoe types we have today).
---
LEAVING US WITH WHAT EXACTLY ? ... the above leaves us with REALITY : that there IS a UK ... and there IS an Israel ... and that us Brits through Allenby made Israel possible ... Therefore, just as GOD did not give the UK to us ...neither did GOD give Israel to the Jews (which does not mean that they are not God's chosen people of course
)
It just means that we Brits were 'God's little helpers'...we made Israel possible. Fate sure does work in mysterious ways, no ?
OK then ..suvy ? By the way .. you have not yet told me how to get 'quotes' into that dinky little silver box ... sure makes things look all neat and tidy like huh ?
cheers
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 13
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
Hi Lemmy
you said :- <<>>
------o(my reply)o--------
That Lemmy, is why GOD allowed Google to be invented,to make psuedo experts of us all ... so that everybody could be up to a reasonable speed for when he invented message boards ...no? and we'd not know if you were cheating or not..
I mean Lemmy, it takes but 30secs or so to find out who Chaim Weizman was ... anybody that can't even do that is a bit ? ..well lazy ..no ?
best wishes
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 14
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 17th January 2009
alecalgo So that, Suvy, leaves us both in absolute agreement with one another ...there'd be no Israel and no UK (well not the unpatriotic thickoe types we have today Not really. I brought up the Romans out of sheer sarcasm - I have a tendency to do that sometimes, it's a chronic condition. I really don't see the point of your thread in historical context. I sense some political undertones, and I find them misplaced, at the very least.
By the way .. you have not yet told me how to get 'quotes' into that dinky little silver box ... sure makes things look all neat and tidy like huh ? Nobody told me either. I was resourceful enough to click on "Help" link and read the whole thing through.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 15
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
Hi there again Suvy man,
<<>>
There's an easy remedy for chronic sarcasm Suvy, first one chews on one's words and then swallows them quickly ... the resulting indigestion is memorable ... all then ok until the next unstoppable overflow of 'chronic bile' ...)
---
<<< I really don't see the point of your thread in historical context. I sense some political undertones, and I find them misplaced, at the very least.>>>
Being avidly non-political I can quickly help you there Suvy ... by saying that the fact (not premise) that "Israel would not exist" but for Allenby's WW1 Crusade ... is definitely in an historical context. A world wide Brit Empire context ... of the Brits being at the bottom of most of the past and current 'troubles' in the world : be they the Middle East, Cyprus, Zimbabwe or the India/Pakistan conflicts ; and that's but 4 of many more .... is that context enough Suvy ?)
---
<<>>
Thanks for the help Suvy ...) Yes, been through Help ... not very Helpful in context of my required 'shiny silver quote box' ... tho' I did find a FAQ to click which, when I waded through it, gave me <...> & </...> for quoting in. They did not work ... nor can I find FAQ's bolt-hole again ... ah well 
(
cheers
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 16
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
alecalgo
There's an easy remedy for chronic sarcasm Suvy, first one chews on one's words and then swallows them quickly ... the resulting indigestion is memorable ... all then ok until the next unstoppable overflow of 'chronic bile'Â
Thanks, but I like myself just the way I am.
the Brits being at the bottom of most of the past and current 'troubles' in the worldÂ
...and that sums up alecalgo's History course. Are you a Brit yourself - just wondering?
I did find a FAQ to click which, when I waded through it, gave me <...> & </...> for quoting in. They did not work Worked for me, quite obviously. Try to actually write the word 'quote' inside those trinkets.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 17
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
Who said that if the WWI did not happen the Ottoman Empire would remain intact? Whoever he must be joking! The Ottoman Empire was never intact and had certainly ceased to be intact in the world's eyes since 1821 and the Greek revolution. A bit earlier it had little control over Egypt. By late 19th century there was no control in North Africa. By 1912 it was out of Europe with all European nations having achieved independence, so much independence that they were so secure as to go on fight each other! Most certainly the Ottoman Empire was a thing of the past and it was not the WWI that disintegrated it but quite the opposite, it was what saved it in the sense that Turkey is the continuation of the Ottoman Empire.
Face it. The WWI had two many axis. One was Russia. The other was Middle East and joint with it the Balkans - i.e. the Greeks. Whatever happened in western Europe and even the millions of dead were futile details otherwise had them been more important no England, France or Germany would had sent armies outside these western fronts, but they did it - another proof being the fact that in WWI as well as in WWII nobody got destroyed - normally after such wars France and England would had at least returned Germany to stone-age to avoid having to fight again if not conquer directly all their lands share them into protectorates ruled by English and French governors.
For those than again wonder why on earth I mention Greeks and Armenians and Russians again I send them back in 1900. Minor Asia had 15 million people. 3 million were Greeks living mainly on the Aegean and black sea coast. 3 million Armenians, mainly in the north-east, 1 million Assyrochaldeans (Syrian christians) and only 9 million muslims. Funnily there was no Turkish back then since muslims considered the term as quite derogative, some of them as very offending - the 90% of them had been anyway at some time in the recent or more distant past local converts (the 10% of eastern muslim origins, a few of them maybe of real turkish origins!!!), they could never relate themselves to some distant tourano-mongolic cowboy past. For muslims of Minor Asia there was never any notion of "fatherland". The only notion that there was there that they had to expand their rule over the infidels who had to work for them. Think of it, why western Minor Asia was any fatherland and Bosnia Erzegovina was not? Muslims saw the same Smyrna and Serajevo, there was no notion of country, only a notion of occupation.
Without the WWI, the natural path would be for Greeks expanding to western Minor Asia, a bit of black sea and of course later Cyprus. Armenians on the east would have their own proper Armenian state (not this little state of today). Those muslims that could work for their living and could live along with christians would had remained inside the Greek and Armenian states forming considerable minorities - most of them would be of course converts that had still some reminiscence of that event, but those irreversible Ottomans or fanatic muslims would rather avoid the "shame of living under an infidel governement" and would have been content to withdraw to inner south-east Minor Asia and continue to form a state along with all Arabs who of course would had never attempted to do any revolution, they had absolutely no reason had it not been for English-French money and the greed of some illiterate local chiefs that dreamt of becoming seichs.
Greeks and Armenians had traditionally excellent relationships (apart the priests that traditionally fight in Jerusalem for the tourists' money!). It was bound that the passage to the middle east would pass to them. And there would not be any reason to fight over it, Armenians would control the direct access to the oilfields, Greeks with their ships and the control of Eastern Mediterranean, the transfer of oil. For muslims (Arabs and Turkish), their could be only 2 choices. Refusing to trade with Greeks and Armenians and having to do with Russians or asking help from English and French and having to trade through the lands of Syria, Palestine and southeast Minor Asia. Even in that negative scenatio it goes without saying that Iranians would always be more friendly to Armenians and Greeks and would had directly passed their oil through pipelines directly to Europe in that way, yet Europe would had to contemplate the influx of oil not controlled by them. Even worse, when Russia was already no3 exporter of oil in the world when it had not even started yet to be properly industrialised!!!!!
Even worse Greeks would had been the first powerful state of eastern Mediterranean - when I say a power, not any of the caliber of France but certainly a power of the caliber of modern France in the modern world, thus not so easily attacked. Sounds fantastic? Well, without WWI, 1922 and the genocide of 1,5 millions, WWII and the 1 million dead from hunger, the civil war and what followed next, it is very moderate to say that a Greece stretching to the Black Sea and Cyprus would easily number 40 million souls (see... dead people would had given birth to people...immmigrants of 1922 would had done it also... so numbers here are very moderate) not counting the muslims in it (who would had most probably very moderate). Now add on the top that little poor Greece back then had already one of the biggest commercial fleets and one of the highest percentage of university graduates in the world. These fact are not at all known today even by Armenians or Greeks but were so well known in those times and things were so clear that even the naturally largely ignorant of the general situation American ambassador in Minor Asia was well aware that "western european investors had been virtually cleared off from Minor Asia and they would be out of middle east because Greeks and Armenians were playing home"...explaining why English and French celebrated the burning of Smyrna along withn all muslims (so much for Arab-Turkish animosity, 1 year after the Arab revolution Arabs were celebrating the slaughters of christians in Minor Asia.... and explaining why modern westernerns admire first Nazi, Kemal Atatourk (a fan of whom was Hitler by the way, where do you think he got inspiration for the concentration camps and the genocide?) and why they have so much difficulty in acknowledging the reality, the genocide of total 4 million Greeks, Armenians and Assyrochaldeans and the cleansing of 3 more millions of them...Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 18
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
Anyway just for the records: the WWI did not start from western Europe, it is no accident that it started in the lands of later Jugoslavia. It was not just the lighter that was used to start the eminent fight between France, England and Germany. It was more than that. The lighter had to be in the east, not in the west. It had to implicate SE Europe as well as Russia. Cos that was the road for control of of world, one needs only to see the map of the world, think of it as a chessboard... at the beggining of the game players search to control the center not the extremes and back in 1900 we were at the beginning of the game (oil had just become the black gold).
Now what was by then evident that would become Jugooslavia was a large but of course fragile land that somehow did not fit well in the plans of Germans but neither in the plans of English or French! It was too large and too un-western European and only so close and they were not used to have such large states next to them... English already had hardly swallowed that next to France they had to contemplate with rising Germany before a looming Russia...
...So Austrians did the good job and sent their little naif prince there as a lamb for slaughter...
....really, now is the joke of the century... have you ever read in details how the prince of Austria was murdered by a "nationalist Serbian student" in Serajevo? Hehehehe... In fact, Austrians had already decided to have him assasinated. But they had to do it with someone local, a passer-by, preferably a Serbian. Then to do so, the Austrian prince had to have reduced force of bodyguards and of course going around visibly so he can be easily shot. Actually, Austrian intelligence had not managed to find any real Serbian nationalists... there were some unorganised groups of pan-yugoslavs though that were of course to be aided to perform the murder.
Hence that day the prince, duke or whatever else he was I do not care, despite of info that his life was threatened and that he would at minimoum east stones if not bullets and grenades...he went on to enter an open car. Now before Gavrilo Princip ... who was more of Croatian origins rather than a Serbian (I think he had no Serbian origins!) and his name is certainly not Serbian at all!), there were 4 or 5 assasination attempts that day!!! Sorry again I repeat 4 or 5... on the train out in the streets on the car...
... I repeat again... 5 or 5 I lost count... yet Austrians were happy getting around their prince in an open car with virtually no bodyguards... one is certain that they were actually anxious and disappointed with the incapability of those slavs to have him killed in the first place. Actually, the driver himself had to turn to another street not programmed to reach Gavrilo who was not only not any Serbian but also not any student in any university (still in high-school I think) who waited there with a handgun and finally proceeded to do the dirty job.
Of course, later Gavrilo became a student and a Serbian nationalist one to accuse and attack Serbia (it is always Serbia's fault anyway, we know that!).
... again I repeat, 4 to 5 failed assasination attempts and Austrians were still insisting of getting around their prince in the cabrio car...Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 19
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
Hi there again Suvy man,
<<>>
There's an easy remedy for chronic sarcasm Suvy, first one chews on one's own words and then swallows them quickly ... the resulting indigestion is memorable ... all then ok until the next unstoppable vomiting-up of 'chronic bile' ...)
---
<<< I really don't see the point of your thread in historical context. I sense some political undertones, and I find them misplaced, at the very least.>>>
Being avidly non-political I can quickly help you there Suvy ... by saying that the fact (not premise) that "Israel would not exist" but for Allenby's WW1 Crusade ... is definitely in an historical context. A world wide Brit Empire context ... of the Brits being at the bottom of most of the past and current 'troubles' in the world : be they the Middle East, Cyprus, Zimbabwe or the India/Pakistan conflicts ; and that's but 4 of many more .... is that context enough Suvy ?)
---
<<>>
Thanks for the help Suvy ...) Yes, been through Help ... not very Helpful in context of my required 'shiny silver quote box' ... tho' I did find a FAQ to click which, when I waded through it, gave me <...> & </...> for quoting in. They did not work ... nor can I find FAQ's hidey-hole again ... ah well (
cheers
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 20
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
Thanks, but I like myself just the way I amÂ
You don't seem to be doing a bad job of being yourself
<<>>
...and that sums up alecalgo's History course. Are you a Brit yourself - just wondering?Â
Yes, a Brit born and bred and glad of it.
How do I square that with the UK role in History ..? Well ... let's put it like this Suvy, if you know England and anything about the animal life here, you'll know that the indigenous Red Squirrel is a threatened specie (the alien interloping foreign Grey fast taking over) and it will be extinct in 20 years.
Let's just say that I belong to the red squirrel side of things ...
So, for doing what we have done to the world in times past, we are pretty damn soon going to get our come-uppance; if nothing else the unfertile english womb has seen to that. Whereas the poor timid Red certainly does not deserve it's inevitable fate ... we Brits probably do ..no?
Try to actually write the word 'quote' inside those trinketsÂ
Thanks Suvy ...finally cracked it .. showed myself up there good and proper And sorry all for double posting ...seems like I must have clicked the button twice as i see an identical post (no 19) to this has arrived.
cheers
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 21
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
alecalgo So, for doing what we have done to the world in times past, we are pretty damn soon going to get our come-uppance; if nothing else the unfertile english womb has seen to that.Â
Looks like a guilt driven death wish. My guess is that you don't make your living as a motivational speaker.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 22
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Sunday, 18th January 2009
There appear to be some issues with the source material you are using. As such there was a common belief that the Jews dominated international finance, not least amongst members of the British cabinet who sanctioned the Balfour Declaration. However the British were not in hock to International Jewry as a result of the Great War. While it is true that Britain was reliant on international credit it was JP Morgan that acted as British agents on Wall Street from November 1914 until the US entered the war in 1917 and started lending directly to the allies. JP Morgan were a decidedly Anglo Saxon finance company that saw the British contract as a means of deriving an advantage over what they regarded as the Jewish and German Finance houses of Wall Street once peace arrived.
Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 23
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Monday, 19th January 2009
There appear to be some issues with the source material you are usingÂ
However the British were not in hock to International Jewry as a result of the Great War. Â
Ditto ..."there appear to be some issues with the source material lolbeeble is using." Anyway ... none of that stuff (tho' of major significance in it's own right) is pertinent to the point I was making. Which is a simple one : that there would be no Israel if the Allenby Crusade north out of Egypt to take Jerusaem in 1917 had not occurred
cheers
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 24
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Monday, 19th January 2009
alecalgo,
If WW1 hadn't broken out the way it did, then it would have broken out another way. The Big Powers of the time were itching for it. Besides, a continent-wide, generation-long period of wars once per century had been the pattern in Europe since the 1500s, and nothing in the early 1900s could have changed that.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 25
Posted by alecalgo (U13782581) on Monday, 19th January 2009
If WW1 hadn't broken out the way it did, then it would have broken out another way. The Big Powers of the time were itching for it. Â
-----O(reply)O--------
you are almost certainly onto a definite maybe there my friend ... and in this proposition of yours it's even more certain there'd not have been an Allenby Crusade north out of Egypt to take Jerusalem in 1917.
---
For that event, the last and most successful (and permanent) of all the Crusades ...was merely an after-thought-last-ditch public relations exercise to snatch a little bit of glory (in fact the first of the war) from the jaws of the WW1 disaster in the trenches (and I doubt the Trenches would have been repeated 'exactly' in your scenario).
For a few brief days the streets of London were alive with congratulatory celebrations ... the millions of dead, dying, and maimed; and of course the shattered living, were for a few days forgotton about. The glory of the 'at-last-we've done-it' final and most successful Crusade - the final feather in the crown, the unbelieveable taking of Jerusalem, was all.
cheers...
alecLink to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 26
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 19th January 2009
Re: Message 18.
Nikolaos, my Greek friend,
first of all and I know we have both English as a second language: I think that you mean with the word "lighter" our Dutch word "aanleiding", they translate it with the words: "occasion, motive, grounds, provocation". I think the Dutch word is best translated in this context as "provocation".
The lighter had to be in the east, not in the west. It had to implicate SE Europe as well as Russia. Cos that was the road for control of of world, one needs only to see the map of the world,Â
Nick, I said it already to Poldertijger, Russia was after 1900 not yet seen as a big part of the world from the view of "might" (especially after the beating by Japan in 1905). Even Japan wasn't yet seen as a "mighty" part of the world. The "world" of those days was Britain, the US, Germany, France and it was between these actors that "the play" would go on stage. And the "causes" of their discord for which they would seek a "trigger", a "provocation" would in my opinion always have to do with matters inherent to their reciprocal relationship as for instance the high sea fleet race between Germany and Britain.
and with "Gavrilo" you are back there with your conspiracy theory that you are uttering perhaps for the third time on these boards. I will only listen if you come with "real" facts and figures. Texts, telegrams, aside police information from that time. I read a whole book abut the Mayerling conspiracy from a Belgian amateur historian and even he after all his meticulous research had to admit that there were only indices that it was murder and not suicide. And then to go further to give indices to prove murder by who, was even more difficult.
Warm regards from your Belgian friend,
Paul.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 27
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Tuesday, 20th January 2009
no destruction of the Ottoman Empire, no Armenian genocide, no atomic bomb, no Iraq, no Saudi Arabia, no Jordan, no Syria, no Yemen, no fall of the European Colonial empires, no Soviet Union, no Gulag, no space-race, no Cold War, and probably no Israel.Â
The realisation that what the Automobile industries would need in the future, came about before the first world war, and was the principal cause of it.
The carving up of the Arab world in to ,what were perceived as 'manageable', states out of the Old Ottoman world, was the main cause of the WW1.
The problem does not change. The Iraq war had the same basis, an increasingly intransigent puppet dictator, who coveted not only the existing BP
Basra fields but previously also the Kuwait deposits.
He thought he was doing the right thing for his people; I now think the same. He was not doing the right thing for the Motorists, and Central Heating owners of the UK, although the recent vastly overinflated boom would not have been so bad withOUT the Iraq war and all its huge military costs.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 28
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 20th January 2009
Paul, using the word "conspiracy" in a discussion about politics is completely meaningless and even more pointless if you use it as an accusation because someone does not seem to agree to re-chew the same old 'n chewed chewing gum that has no taste to give anymore (i.e. history that cannot be justified by common logic... and common logic says that 4 attempts in a day + prince still in cabrio touring in an enemy country + driver managing to get the "wrong way" = pre-designed assasination).
The truth is that in Sarajevo, there was no Serbian nationalist trying to kill this poor (and completely naif) prince proved by the fact that his guards were trying to have him killed and they couldn't!!!! 4 attempts were made before one schoolboy with a gun killed him only because the driver "chose the wrong way". A royal visit in the small streets? Kennedy was killed because he wanted to be in a cabrio to have some contact with the citizens, but what on earth this Austrian prince was doing in a cabrio in a country that hated him and when it was known that the least he would suffer was tons of yogurt (if not something other, of brown colour) in his face? I mean, had you been his personal advisor on security matters, Mahatma Gandi would had sent you to the Siberian Gulagks for life!Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 29
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 20th January 2009
Re: Message 28.
Nikolaos,
thank you for your reply.
About your theory: with the cabrio you can have an argument, but didn't the same happened at Marseille with a ? (have to seek it back) also in an open cabrio or carriage? Murderattempt on Alexander II of Russia also in an open carriage (have seen the film "Spring Parade" with the famous titlesong, but that was only a so-called "historical" film).
Nick, have you further support for your theory as texts from the Austrian secret police, somehow not distroyed and surviving as the SS files at Nuremberg, to prove without doubt that the Austrian secret police was exposing the Prince to be assasinated. They said also that the secret police was responsable for the Mayerling murders, but up to now nobody found proves, only anomalies in the stories.
Warm regards,
Paul.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 30
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 20th January 2009
Addendum to message 29.
Nikolaos,
and in Marseille it was a closed car and it was the king of ... guess it...Yugoslavia murdered together with the French minister of foreign affairs: Barthou in 1934.
Some mysteries too according to the Watson institute...
and some different versions of the same footage? And forbidden to show in the time in the UK?
Warm regards,
Paul.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 31
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 20th January 2009
Correction to the second footage:
Excuses, Paul.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
-
Message 32
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 20th January 2009
Correction message 30.
OOPS,
and now U see by looking attentively to the footage that the "end"! of the car was "open"!.
Regards, Paul.Link to this forum: If there'd been no WW1 etc .... modified in line with answer
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Â鶹ԼÅÄ iD
Â鶹ԼÅÄ navigation
Â鶹ԼÅÄ links
Â鶹ԼÅÄ Â© 2014 The Â鶹ԼÅÄ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.