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NATO & the "credit crunch"

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  Hi all,
  
  As the issues of the UK woeful financial situation keeps on "gannin doon" (as we say in Geordieland) do you think this will severely affect our comitments to NATO - for example if we have to pay for anything abroad our currency is next to worthless e.g. Amercian equipment becomes more expensive (although I know we deal with these things via bilateral trade agreements not a Visa card).
  
  It also make the steel and other materials needed to build out two CVN's more expensive - so mebe the RN will never see them ever. However surely now is the time to get out there hawking our wares - (cue Safestyle UK windows-style ad *crazy looking hippy-style guy screaming*) I say buy the front of a Eurofighter Tyhpoon and get the back free and 0% interest til 2009).

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  We could start pehaps by insisting that ALL government and local government contracts are signed in blood, and when they say I will deliver a button or a battleship for X pounds, make it clear that that is the price the company will be paid. But it starts out with One Billion, and then it becomes two, Oh did I say two, I meant three but four would be better. Then God forbid somebody suggests pulling the contract, we have the old cry of British jobs being lost. Oh, and no more junkets. A few years ago, a Lord Mayor up our part of the world spent so much time abroad visiting places they where twinned with, his staff suggested having two mayors One in home colours, and one in away kit.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by cmedog47 (U3614178) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  Since the US economy is moving down in concert, the relative cost of trade should move down as well even keeping it at the same levels. The worse thing we could do is to restrict trade as that turned the panic of '29 into the great depression. Also cutting defense spending and creating additional unemployment while weakening our ability to defend ourself 10 or 15 years hence would be self-destructive in both short and long terms.
  
  Doesn't mean it won't happen. No one ever said the public was wise.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  NATO crunched its own credit when it began launching illegal wars of aggression in direct violation of its own Charter.
  
  It has consequently lost all moral and legal credibility.
  
  Maybe it's time to start thinking about crunching NATO into the trash can of history.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  "Also cutting defense spending and creating additional unemployment while weakening our ability to defend ourself 10 or 15 years hence would be self-destructive in both short and long terms."
  
  I thin k the problem is that we don't need lots of capital expenditure to win essentially any war we'll fight in next 50 years - we have soldiers that can do Afghanistan/Iraq, airpower for anywhere we can't get soldiers to e.g. Iranian nuclear power stations and then we have cruise missiles and heaven forbid ICBM's if things get very dicey.
  
  I kinda agree with u Vizzer - maybe a mor4e essential thing would be a bilateral defence treaty away from NATO....but with whom?

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  'Maybe it's time to start thinking about crunching NATO into the trash can of history.'- I've got other proposal. Start thinking about withdrawing the NATO troops from Afghanistan. Stop to defend the Russian national interests over there !!!

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Frank Parker (U7843825) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  Hi GFR,
  Can I point out what may turn out to be a couple of holes in your theory about the CVNs?
  1. The main contractor is, I believe, French (Thales) so maybe we can buy materials using Euros?
  2. The recession has depressed the price of all commodities including steel so if we buy now we should get it at a lower price than would have been the case a year ago.
  As for "hawking our wares", I agree 100%. Probably not Typhoons as most of the supply contracts for that have been signed up to already but we certainly ought to be out there flogging the Lightnings that are intended, among other things, to operate off the CVNs. In fact, I'd be very surprised indeed if there aren't teams of salesmen and women working on it right now. Defence contractors have nothing to learn from Safestyle in that regard!

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  I see your point re: mats to build the things but dsurely the government has had to stump up GBP's to give to Thales to build the things in first place?
  
  Also if the HMG is worried about the large capital projects then mebe it'll cut back on these (as you said they are overseas projects) and then use the cash savings on other stuff e.g. light man-quipment.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Frank Parker (U7843825) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  surely the government has had to stump up GBP's to give to Thales to build the things in first place?Β 
  Good point! Thinking about it, the whole thing gets complicated because Thales will be using a good proportion of those GBPs to pay UK shipyards to do the work! They could be on to a v.good thing - if they bought Euros with their GBPs when you could get €1.5/£1 and are now buying GBPs at €1.02/£1!
  Depends on the contract details and how payments from HMG/MoD to Thales are staged. Usually payments are made as and when agreed milestones are achieved, not up-front. It's possible that Thales could be out of pocket - eg if their finance people decided that it would be a good idea to buy GBPs on the foreign exchange markets months ago in anticipation of the future neeed to pay UK shipbuilders...Now the GBPs they'll get from HMG/MoD won't buy as many Euros. Who knows, maybe the contract was agreed at a fixed exchange rate in which case it's HMG (ie you and me) who'll be out of pocket! (Would the guys in MoD be that daft? Would they?!!)

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008

  Its a n opportunity for BAE and the like to really pull ahead in the amrket place - there's at least three nations out there that could benefit from plenty cut-price Britsh kit (of any vintage) that we have floating about there - Afghanistan, Iraq and we could always flog some of this gear to Bosnia etc.
  
  I suppose tho for the extra few quid that a Rafale will costif the French are saying you can have this + some extra for your troubles as a way of making their product more "sellable" what would you go for?
  
  I guess the worry for US arms manufactuors is that as Saudi/Mid-East money dries up and the USG lowering public spending that once viable projects won't be so "viable" - RAH66 Commanche anybody? And surely that's one thing that would actually go down rather well I suspect as Apache's can't go on for ever.

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