Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
Stalin: The Greatest ever Russian?
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 28th December 2008
The Russians are now busy voting on this topic.
Apparently the obvious greats from music and the arts (Rachmaninoff, Repin, Gorky, Tolstoy, Pushkin) are likely to come in well behind Uncle Joe.
Â鶹ԼÅÄ News (22.30 GMT 28-12-2008) says that Vladimir Putin is encouraging a re-write of Soviet era history with the aim of re-habilitating the 'great dictator'.
The Russian historical archive "Memorial" has just been raided and all of their digital records of the Stalin era have been stolen by state police.
How would you rate Stalin? -
Message 2
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 29th December 2008
Stalin wasn't Russian - he was Georgian.
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Message 3
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Monday, 29th December 2008
Stalin wasn't Russian - he was Georgian.Ìý
I knew I could rely on you for a bit of pedantry Viz.
Fact is he spoke Russian and 'ran' Russia (some call him the first 'Red Tsar') and the Russians consider him a "countryman", hence his inclusion in the vote. He came third by the way.
I suppose you regard Barack Obama as Hawaian, or Kenyan, perhaps?
So, do you have an opinion about Stalin's place in history or not?
Since you are such a student of Caucasus politics, perhaps you could tell us for how long Georgia has been free of Russian/ Soviet control or influence in the last 200 years? -
Message 4
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Monday, 29th December 2008
I'd say Vladimir Putin himself has a good claim to be in top-5 as I think he's been an excellent leader - he's aided Russian democracy by cracking down on tax-avoiders, effectivly and correctly crushed Chechen intransigence and has showed that it's wrong to mess with what the majority want e.g. South Ossetia and the Caucasus Russian Republics (being interfered with by Azerbaijan etc.)
I think his guidance (well his cabinet's) on the economy has helped Russia grow its wealth and economy.
I only wish Brown & his cronies would evict that rat Boris Berezovsky from London - after all we'd throw out Muqtada Al-Sadr and Berezovsky is at least as bad as Al-Sadr. -
Message 5
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Monday, 29th December 2008
The entire country of Russia is in need of psychotherapy. They keep rewriting their history to match the times.
Once Comrade Stalin was so omnipotent, that even Russian science was subservient to him. After his death he became the Monster-in-chief of the Soviet Union. Now he is again being rehabilitated, as is Vladimir Putin.
What a strange country! If it was not for their oil, natural gas and other natural resources, it would be better to forget them and let them seek their own therapy.
Tas -
Message 6
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Monday, 29th December 2008
GFR (4)
I'd say Vladimir Putin himself has a good claim to be in top-5 as I think he's been an excellent leaderÌý
I agree with that. The west humiliated Russia in the 1990’s and watched the Russians swivel on a gibbet of poverty and corruption. Now they have the chance to use their oil and gas to screw us. Revenge is sweet and best taken cold. Alas, we will be the new victims of a resurgent Russia.
When they needed help we sent in the carpetbaggers and spivs to plunder their assets. Why should Putin care about our version of dysfunctional capitalism?
But let’s not kid ourselves. Putin is no Robin Hood in disguise. He is a clever control freak with a great skill for self publicity. You can take the boy out of the FSB, but you can’t take the FSB out of the boy. -
Message 7
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 29th December 2008
<quote>The entire country of Russia is in need of psychotherapy. They keep rewriting their history to match the times.<quote>
Ive never understood how such a large country,with such huge resources never "made it" as the the worlds premier power.When you look at the likes of China and India who are making great strides in terms of advancement and increased GDP,how come the USSR didnt make it to the top of the tree? Or were they too big?Or was it because they chose the wrong system.Or is their time yet to come?
Given the finacial collapse the west has suffered are we seeing the "end of days" for the west.
As for Stalin? well its certainly interesting.If Hitler had been successful I would imagine that Hitler would have been voted greatest ever German.
Wishing you all a prosperous (tricky given the finacial climate
and a happy new year
Vf -
Message 8
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 29th December 2008
Hi, there, Pilot,
Revenge is sweet and best taken cold. Alas, we will be the new victims of a resurgent RussiaÌý
With the plunging oil prices, Putin may very well be in big trouble now, so... You know, I can't help it when there's an opportunity to contest something you say... -
Message 9
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 29th December 2008
he spoke RussianÌý
Georgian was his first language. Russian his second.
and 'ran' Russia (some call him the first 'Red Tsar')Ìý
Stalin did indeed rule Russia but only via the Soviet Union.
the Russians consider him a "countryman", hence his inclusion in the vote. He came third by the way.
Ìý
Some Russians might do. One wonders, however, just how many people took part in what was only a television station's straw poll.
I suppose you regard Barack Obama as Hawaian, or Kenyan, perhaps?Ìý
I can't see the relevance of this question. Why should Barack Obama be compared to Stalin?
Stalin was born in Georgia to Georgian parents. He was Georgian - not Russian.
Obama was born in the US to a US mother. He's a US citizen.
So, do you have an opinion about Stalin's place in history or not?Ìý
Yes - Stalin's place is well established. He was well placed to take advantage of the opportunities which presented themselves to him and did so ruthlessly.
Since you are such a student of Caucasus politics, perhaps you could tell us for how long Georgia has been free of Russian/ Soviet control or influence in the last 200 years?Ìý
This question isn't really relevant. It's a bit like someone saying that Terry Wogan is 'the greatest English broadcaster' and then when someone points out that he's actually Irish then getting the reply "well how long has Ireland been free of English/ UK control or influence in the last 200 years?" -
Message 10
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Monday, 29th December 2008
This is deeply worrying, shocking, but unsurprising. Putin has re-established the principle of personal leadership by a strong and ruthless Leader: Personal identity, not constitutional role, determines where the centre of power is in this newly founded dictatorship. Stalin was the archetypical Russian Leader with a capital L, and it is probably a sign of the times that his approval rating is going up again. It serves a purpose. That hasn't much to do with history. People who have lived under dictatorships for long enough develop a cynical attitude to history.
Stalin's track record is hard to evaluate in terms of achievements because he was, first of all, an opportunistic survivor. He has been praised for leading the USSR to victory in the "Great Patriotic War", but of course the 3rd Reich would never have been such a threat if Stalin had not aided and abetted the Nazis in the first place, and organized the slaughter of his own officer cadres.
The risk in assessing a man like Stalin is that his defenders will attribute every Soviet achievement between 1922 and 1953 to him, and his detractors every crime and disaster. We simply don't know how Russian history would have evolved without Stalin. However, I think it is reasonable to say that it could not have been much worse.
For this was a dictatorship awash in blood. How many victims there were is still controversial; reasonable estimates range from 5 to 20 million. Probably enough, in any case, to establish Stalin firmly in second place in the listing of history's mass murderers. Even Stalin's "lesser" crimes, such as the murder of 22,000 Polish officers and intellectuals in 1940, should be enough to damn his memory. -
Message 11
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Monday, 29th December 2008
...the obvious greats from music and the arts...Ìý
Must be some obvious ones from the sciences too. Mendeleyev, for example, who created the Periodic Table which is the very foundation of modern chemistry. Tsiolkovsky, the pioneering rocket scientist and space visionary. Sergey Korolyov, the 'chief designer' of the Russian space programme.
A more recent candidate would be mathematician Grigori Perelman, who in 2002 proved the Poincare conjecture, which had been resisting proof for almost 100 years.
Come to think of it, how about all those brilliant chess players? -
Message 12
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Monday, 29th December 2008
It might be fairly interesting to see the entire list.
All I've seen so far:
1. Alexander Nevsky
2. Piotr Stolypin
3. Stalin
4. Pushkin
6. Lenin
11. Catherine the Great
It all looks about as daft as that recent vote in the UK to name the greatest-ever Briton. -
Message 13
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 29th December 2008
What happened to 7 - 10 ?
Is number 8 Catherine the Great's horse?
Vf -
Message 14
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 29th December 2008
It all looks about as daft as that recent vote in the UK to name the greatest-ever Briton.Ìý
Quite so:
It's amazing that when another country has such a television poll then some people get all indignant but when the Â鶹ԼÅÄ does it then it's somehow okay. -
Message 15
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 29th December 2008
Stalin wasn't Russian - he was Georgian.Ìý
Precisely, in the same way that Hitler was an Austrian not German. The Russians electing Stalin would indicate the same degree of self-loathing as a nation that the Germans would have done had they elected Hitler (whose candidature was, I think, ruled invalid) in their poll. At least they preferred a unifier (Adenauer) over two dividers (Marx and Luther).
Russia has produced the world's greatest novelist in Leo Tolstoy, some of its greatest composers in Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky amd Prokofiev and some of its most barbarous rulers. It depends if you think barbarity and slaughtering your own people by the millions ranks as "greatness" in preference to enriching the world's cultural heritage. Personally, I prefer Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky to butchers like Lenin and Stalin. -
Message 16
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Monday, 29th December 2008
What happened to 7 - 10 ?Ìý
Or 5 and 12? They weren't quoted in the paper I saw.
Maybe just some 'obscure' Russians of whom our editors hadn't heard.
Amazed to see the 'Greatest Briton' nonsense was as long ago as 2002. -
Message 17
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 29th December 2008
Personally, I prefer TolstoyÌý
Tolstoy may have alienated a lot of people forced to read lengthy French letters and endless Epilogue from the War & Peace at school. -
Message 18
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 29th December 2008
Not as much as Stalin alienated people by forced collectivisation and making them work as slave labourers in the gulags.
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Message 19
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 29th December 2008
Not as much as Stalin alienated people by forced collectivisation and making them work as slave labourers in the gulagsÌý
Judging by the vote, surviving guard from GULAG outnumbered surviving inmates. -
Message 20
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
'The west humiliated Russia in the 1990’s'-hmm...
'Now they have the chance to use their oil and gas to screw us.'-if you seem to be ready to pay for all they want to get ...why do you complain then? All that KGBers-'pravoveds' got they gained for the cash from the West.
Neither bears nor camels want to pay for the 'russian' gas&oil. -
Message 21
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
the same degree of self-loathing as a nation that the Germans would have done had they elected Hitler (whose candidature was, I think, ruled invalid) in their poll. At least they preferred a unifier (Adenauer) over two dividers (Marx and Luther).Ìý
And another unifier who made the Top 10 of the poll run by Germany's ZDF was Bismarck.
None of this should be too surprising, however, as in the Â鶹ԼÅÄ poll Oliver Cromwell made the Top 10 of 'greatest ever Britons'. One wonders, perhaps, what licence fee payers in Scotland and Ireland made of that. -
Message 22
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
But Ukraine is not ready to pay $400 ( the price taken from heavens-the dedicated to the KGBer's views on the Ukrainian future Germans got around $300 ) in given circumstances.
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Message 23
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
Great doesnt always mean good.
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Message 24
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
Tolstoy is widely touted as the greatest novelist of all time, but there's also Gogol, Dostoevsky, Chekhov, etc. to consider. No doubt Stalin-voters will not be considering Nabokov, Bulgakov, Zamyatin, Solzhenitsyn, Pasternak, Mandelstam or Ahkmatova...
Of the great composers, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov and Shostakovich should be added to Allan's list. -
Message 25
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
Actually Stalin was not even a Georgian, he was a Jew from Georgia. However too often he went against Jewish he did not trust very well (too many jewish were in the communist party, so he wanted to get rid of potential opponents like foreigner Trotsky for example). However, it is true that Stalin while he harmed a lot Russia, was mainly based on it, thus he can be considered as a Russian leader in the larger sense.
I find it natural that Stalin makes it to the top of the greatest Russians of all time. The bulk of the Russian population is quite aged (they have terrible natality rates!) and that means that most of them have received communist education in which Stalin was more than a hero. The 50 million people (Russians and others) that he condamned to death over his 30 years rule went into oblivion.
Despite the fact that today quite many people are aware of Stalin's crimes and while the nationalist cozak-style Russians will speak against Stalin at times often those that talk too much on Stalin's crimes from the as-if humanitarian side are perceived (and sometimes not wrongly) as people of reduced national consciousness or downright traitors - it is going to be people like Politovskaya (talking too much about the rebellion of Tchetchenia, who was mourned by a very small part of Russians since for most she was a journalist sold to foreign centers and local mafia businessmen (and that was 100% true of course) otherwise foreigners would talk so much about her). For most Russians, either of communist sympathies or of nationalist sympathies, it is much more convenient to remember Stalin as the leader that led them through the 2nd WWI and the leader that beated the Nazis - some will go to the extend of describign him as a liberator of Europe.
Well the truth was that Russia was destined to rule Europe and the world in the 20th century, Stalin simply restrained Russia and contained it only to the one half of the world. I do not know if that makes him a great Russian. With a country like Russia under his feet anyone could do better than him. -
Message 26
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
E_Nikolaos_E,
Actually Stalin was not even a Georgian, he was a Jew from Georgia.Ìý
Where'd you hear that Stalin was a Jew? -
Message 27
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
Where'd you hear that Stalin was a Jew?Ìý
Nikolaos appears to be quite sensitive to the Jewish question. He probably has a relative who died during the Holocaust by accidently falling from a camp guard tower. -
Message 28
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
Ouch...
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Message 29
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
Even $418 ? Appetite comes with the eating so to speak.Bloody scoundrels.
Europeans, prepare to meet the New Year without gas from the Ukrainian pipelines. -
Message 30
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
'Actually Stalin was not even a Georgian, he was a Jew from Georgia. '- never heard about it.But he was the one who helped Israel to survive in 1948.
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Message 31
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
But he was the one who helped Israel to survive in 1948Ìý
That's debatable. Stalin did not supply Israel with anything except MGB agents. Yet, shortly thereafter he hanged the entire Czech government for supplying Israel with weapons that won the war (the odds were heavily against Israel at the time, of course). By the way, he was attending Christian Orthodox seminary when a teenager. Nikolaos will dig this, I'm sure. -
Message 32
Posted by Grand Falcon Railroad (U3267675) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
I'm very suprised Mikhail Klashnikov wasn't actually number 1 - he invented the AK-47 for gawd's sake - and where would cool African rebels as well as the VC, NVA, PLA and numerous other groups like Hamas be without him......I'll tell ya but it ain't pleasant.
Along with Artem Mikoyan and his fellow Mr Guervich for the awesome MiG-25 and the delightful Mr Tupelov for the yet untried Tu-128 Blackjack..... -
Message 33
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
Stalin thought that Israel could breach a gap in the British position.
He hated Brits. -
Message 34
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
not only was Stalin the greatest russian ever - he was the greatest man in the history of the world
can u imagine what would have happened to world history if this despotic phsycopath - who probably killed as many ussr citizens as hitler - wasnt in charge for ww2 - how about if it was chamberlain!!
the nazis were smashed by the russians - d day wouldnt have happened if they werent so resolute - and they were probably a better choice although the world lived on the edge for 40 yrs
this man imprisoned his daughter in law AND grandchildren when his son was taken pow - and the nazis foolishly kept him alive thinking to use him as a hostage for bargaining - no chance
my no 1
st -
Message 35
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
can u imagine what would have happened to world history if this despotic phsycopath - who probably killed as many ussr citizens as hitler - wasnt in charge for ww2 - how about if it was chamberlain!!Ìý
Two comments:
1. He DID kill many more people than Hitler ever got a hold of
2. WW2 may never have happened - or it may never have reached such a devastating scale, at the very least - if it was not for Stalin -
Message 36
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
MM (10)
We simply don't know how Russian history would have evolved without Stalin. However, I think it is reasonable to say that it could not have been much worse.Ìý
Agreed.
He created a mass paranoia in which child informed on parent and generals (Pavlov et al.) were tortured until they accepted blame for his mistakes.
There has been speculation (from Nikolaos and others) about Stalin's 'Jewish' roots. If that is true his anti-semitism in his final (1951-)years is hard to explain. According to Montefiore, S. "Stalin" (2003, chp 56, page 543 et seq) he developed a fear that his Jewish doctors ('The Doctors' Plot') were trying to kill him.
So the Jewish doctors were tortured and sent away, but they happened to be the best available, so the poorer-quality (non-Jewish) doctor replacements relayed Stalin's symptoms to the surviving Jewish docors for professional guidance.
Stalin's track record is hard to evaluate in terms of achievements because he was, first of all, an opportunistic survivor.Ìý
Spot on.
He had much in common with Putin, in terms of his opportunism and wish to avoid being tainted by disaster.
He (Stalin) disappeared from public view in the months immediately after the German invasion, yet re-surfaced once things had begun to make sense.
Putin 're-surfaced' after the second Chechen war. -
Message 37
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
"The delightful Mr Tupolev" died in 1972, before the Tu-160 (not Tu-128) "Blackjack" programme was started... Mikoyan in 1970, Gurevich in 1976.
Tupolev died at a respectable age, having been born in 1888. And while he was unlikely to win a contest for Greatest Russian, he might very well win a contest for Greatest Aircraft Designer. In his long career he oversaw the design and production of more different aircraft types than any other designer, including quite a few innovative world-beaters.
Not a nice man, perhaps. Nice men didn't survive long in Stalin's USSR, and even A.N. Tupolev didn't escape a spell in prison. -
Message 38
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
'Tolstoy is widely touted as the greatest novelist of all time, but there's also Gogol,'- Mike, yes, Gogol-Ukrainian was forced to write his books not in Ukrainian but in Russian ( because it was accepted in the Russian Empire that the Ukrainians and the Belorussians were not separate peoples but 'Little' and "White' Russians thus it was forbidden for them to write books in other languages than Russian ).
But it doesn't prove that Gogol being exclusively a Russian writer. He was our own Ukrainian 'spy' ( hah-hah ) in midst of the reading Russia. Well,let Russians count Gogol as a Russian writer. What does it prove ?It just proves the theory why Russians when saying about themselves as the ' russian patriots' always oblige to identify Russia with its imperial claims. They are entrapped by the FACT that Russia had become an Empire before it had become a Nation. It partly can explain many things such as appearing among the famous Russians such persons like the 'jew' DzugashviliStalin-'successful manager' ( in a such great way labelled him the FIRST RUSSIAN TV CHANNEL- the Chichikov's Voice of Putins ) and the Ivan the Terrible who lost himself somewhere between points 7 and 11 within the list.. As for Gogol he was a real Ukrainian because ONLY Ukrainian could write the book 'Dead Souls'. The story of scoundrel Chichikov who travels around the estates of Russia buying up the lists of deceased serfs ( or 'souls' as they were then called during the elections-falsifications in Chichikov's ( Putin's ) modern Russia ) whose death had not yet registered-and from ostentations of their manor houses rather than the success of their farms . And many of the squires-Abramovichs squandered the INCOME from their ( oil
) estates on expensive luxuries ( the FC s Chelsea ) imported from Europe rather than investing it in their FARMS !!!! Bravo, Mykola Gogol !!!!
Putins have NEVER understood that INCOME IS NOT PROFIT !!!!
Dostoevsky was a real Russian Writer ( Crime&Punishment). Only Russian can judge seriously the issue -does that guy was right or not when he murdered the poor granny to gain from her the couple of roubles ????? A Russian Enigma. -
Message 39
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
'We simply don't know how Russian history would have evolved without Stalin.'-surely we don't know..but the history of the folks who had dedicated their lifetimes only to the one aim- to fight other nations can't live without Stalins&Putins on the Top_List.
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Message 40
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
Stalin-'successful manager' is the definiion for the 'morality' of the gang which holds to the power in the modern Russia because that Chichikov's TV1 can't say a word without 'tip',to say such and such, from above.
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Message 41
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
Stalin Comes Clean!
Shamed former Soviet leader J.Stalin spoke publicly
for the first time last night about 'stalinism'.
Speaking live on X.Z's 'Today R. Big Show'(R1)
the former Father admitted that his regime was
a BAD THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was Stalin's first public appearance since his 'death' in 1953..He looked uncomfortable and shifted awkwardly in his chair as he faced up to the inevitable questions about mass genocide-Holodomor.
IN ZISS LIFE ZERE ARE BAT SINGS UNT ZERE ARE GOOT SINGS.
VOT I VUD DID VOZ A BAT SING,UNT I PARTLI ACCEPT ZET
he told the popular chat show host.
His words were greeted with rapturous applause by the R. audience.Indeed R. public appear to have taken the dictator to their hearts
Early indications are that Stalin's popularity is hiken up to the heavens.
Already R. film producers have made several hundred films about his Management. -
Message 42
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
Onupa (38)
Only Russian can judge seriously the issue -does that guy was right or not when he murdered the poor granny to gain from her the couple of roubles ????? A Russian Enigma.Ìý
You are right that 'Crime and Punishment' is truly a Russian book but there is no 'enigma' in it, imho.
Raskolnikov knows he is wrong to kill the old money lender (and her sister who stumbles on the scene) although his desperate need for cash makes him imagine a political, even virtuous, motive.
Both Sonia and the detective (Porfiry?) know he is at heart a decent man and that his conscience will win in the end. If I remember correctly he gives himself up. He is interrogated more by his guilt than by the police.
The difference between Raskolnikov and Stalin is that the former had a conscience, the latter did not. -
Message 43
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
'Raskolnikov knows he is wrong to kill the old money lender (and her sister who stumbles on the scene) although his desperate need for cash makes him imagine a political, even virtuous, motive'-
there is no excuse for any of so-called ' motives' in order to dedicate to this criminal-murder-'terrorist' the book, mate U2. -
Message 44
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
Well,let Russians count Gogol as a Russian writer. What does it prove ?It just proves the theory why Russians when saying about themselves as the ' russian patriots' always oblige to identify Russia with its imperial claims. They are entrapped by the FACT that Russia had become an Empire before it had become a Nation.Ìý
Interesting observation OUNUPA.
There is a similar situation in the UK with many people in England being often unable to distinguish between 'England' and between 'Great Britain' and between 'the UK'.
Thankfully things are beginning to change and more and more English people are realising that there is more to our English national identity than just UK imperialism and militarism.
Hopefully in Russia there are also genuine Russian nationalists who can see their way through the foggy legacy of 'Greater Russian' patriotism and Soviet expansionism etc. -
Message 45
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
Hopefully in Russia there are also genuine Russian nationalists who can see their way through the foggy legacy of 'Greater Russian' patriotism and Soviet expansionism etc.Ìý
There's certainly no shortage of 'genuine' Russian nationalists at the moment. Most of them are fervently pro-Putin and, far from wishing to withdraw into the old 'pre-imperial' Russian borders, many actually want to re-create the old USSR; partly because Putin is trying to re-habilitate Stalin and Russian kids are no longer told the truth about his repression
One of the reasons why Putin's Russian 'nationalists' are threatening to turn off the gas supply to Ukraine tomorrow.
Ukraine is being punished for leaving the party too early.
Whereas Scottish Nationalists in the UK cannot achieve support from even a third of Scotland's voters (30% according to Radio 4, 13.00 today), Russians supporting Putin's nationalism account for about 60-65% of the Russian vote.
(Some people in the UK still seem to believe that their nationality is 'English'. They should disabuse themselves of this silly idea by trying to travel to the USA with a visa form which says 'English' under the heading 'Nationality'. They will be held at US immigration and given sufficient replacement forms until they get it right by entering the word 'British' under nationality and 'UK' under place of abode.
For a glimpse of 'genuine', hard-core, Russian nationalists just google: 'Speznatz'. -
Message 46
Posted by OUNUPA (U2078829) on Wednesday, 31st December 2008
'One of the reasons why Putin's Russian 'nationalists' are threatening to turn off the gas supply to Ukraine tomorrow.'- their last figure -$250 has not accepted by the Ukrainian side.
That's right.
'For a glimpse of 'genuine', hard-core, Russian nationalists just google: 'Speznatz'.'- they aren't nationalists because they even have no their own Nation .
=================================
Well,
Happy New Year,
sidekicks.
-
Message 47
Posted by -frederik- (U13721647) on Friday, 2nd January 2009
Replying to the first message:
If you see Stalin as the greatest Russian, You might just as well see Hitler as the greatest German.
Hitler did some good things for Germany:
*He built roads (still in use today)
*He gave the people jobs (lowest percentage of unemployment in the world)
Despite this, would anyone even dare to put Hitler on the list of candidates? I think (/hope) not.
Let us not forget Stalin was personally responsible for millions of murders. "Nobody was (brother, general, workman) was safe for Stalins terror." -
Message 48
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 3rd January 2009
There's certainly no shortage of 'genuine' Russian nationalists at the moment. Most of them are fervently pro-Putin and, far from wishing to withdraw into the old 'pre-imperial' Russian borders, many actually want to re-create the old USSR; partly because Putin is trying to re-habilitate Stalin and Russian kids are no longer told the truth about his repressionÌý
Well in which case they’re not nationalists. They’re imperialists.
One of the reasons why Putin's Russian 'nationalists' are threatening to turn off the gas supply to Ukraine tomorrow.Ìý
It’s good to see that inverted commas are used here – because they’re not nationalists.
It’s significant also that in the UK it’s been the UK unionists who have threatened Scotland and Wales with economic blockades and oil wars etc.
Ukraine is being punished for leaving the party too early.Ìý
Which party was that?
Whereas Scottish Nationalists in the UK cannot achieve support from even a third of Scotland's voters (30% according to Radio 4, 13.00 today),Ìý
Seems like a glorious recommendation of the UK that. It’s so disliked that 1 in 3 Scots actively seeks an end to it.
It's significant also that the Â鶹ԼÅÄ and the rest of the UK establishment rarely ask the English if they want to be part of the UK. The reason is that they don't like the answer which they get:
Some people in the UK still seem to believe that their nationality is 'English'.Ìý
And so we do and indeed we are.
They should disabuse themselves of this silly ideaÌý
Despite the impertinence - we won’t - thanks all the same.
by trying to travel to the USA with a visa form which says 'English' under the heading 'Nationality'.Ìý
Do you really think that a US immigration official is going to pick up on and make a fuss about the difference between the words ‘English’ and ‘British’ when many people in the UK itself can’t even tell the difference?
They will be held at US immigration and given sufficient replacement forms until they get it right by entering the word 'British' under nationality and 'UK' under place of abode.Ìý
Will Scottish and Northern Irish people also be treated by US immigration in this way?
Besides - I think you’ll find that we nationalists are very pragmatic people and we know how to bend in the wind when needs must. I’ll let you into a little secret. We're well used to it...
…we’ve had to do it all our lives.
For a glimpse of 'genuine', hard-core, Russian nationalists just google: 'Speznatz'.Ìý
What has Spetsnaz to do with Russian nationalism? It’s a common name for the special forces of the Soviet Union and as a term has been widely known internationally since as long ago as at least the early 1980s. So what?
It’s a bit like someone on a messageboard in Russia telling someone else to do an online search for the phrase ‘Who Dares Wins’ for a glimpse into ‘genuine hard-core English nationalism’.
As OUUNPA has pointed out - in order to be called a nationalist one needs first to have a nation. For unionists and imperialists in the UK to spit their hatred of unionists and imperialists in other states and then label them as ‘nationalists’ is laughable beyond belief. -
Message 49
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Saturday, 3rd January 2009
Frederik.
If you see Stalin as the greatest Russian, You might just as well see Hitler as the greatest German.Ìý
I don't see Stalin as the greatest Russian. If you read the whole thread you will see that I hold him in contempt.
The vote I was drawing attention to in the OP was a poll of Russian voters. Stalin (3rd place) was only 5,500 votes behind the winner, Nevsky.
The issue is of significance to a history board such as this because there is evidence that Stalin's reputation is being re-habilitated in Russia and independent researchers, such as the 'Memorial' group, are having their archives on Stalin's crimes stolen by the state police.
Fortunately, the people contributing to this thread seem still to know the truth about Stalin. -
Message 50
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Saturday, 3rd January 2009
Do you really think that a US immigration official is going to pick up on and make a fuss about the difference between the words ‘English’ and ‘British’ when many people in the UK itself can’t even tell the difference? Ìý
You haven't been there have you Viz?
That is exactly what happens at US immigration to the cocky Essex boys who think they are part of an imaginary nation called 'England'.
Will Scottish and Northern Irish people also be treated by US immigration in this way?Ìý
'Fraid so. You really must get out more. They are British too.
Do you actually have a passport?
Read the cover and page 31, if you are unsure of your nationality.
The separate kingdoms of Scotland and England agreed in 1707 to form a united kingdom, to be known as Great Britain, with a combined parliament.Ìý (From Wiki)
Get over it Viz, you are British. I know you see us as a 'failed state', but I can't help noticing that you are still happy to live here.
Seems like a glorious recommendation of the UK that. It’s so disliked that 1 in 3 Scots actively seeks an end to it.Ìý
Err, and so that would mean that70% are happy to be part of the UK and carry on receiving the extra benefits of the Barnet formula (£1,600 per capita pa), it seems.
It’s significant also that in the UK it’s been the UK unionists who have threatened Scotland and Wales with economic blockades and oil wars etc.Ìý
The Welsh oil-wars eh? We didn't cover those at school. Perhaps you can remind us of the dates?
Happy New Year Viz. This one is going to be fun.
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