Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Trench Warfare
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by jinks-cider-stash (U7847019) on Monday, 1st December 2008
I've recently heard that the Maoris were the first people to introduce trench warfare. Is this correct?
I would have thought it was much older. -
Message 2
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Monday, 1st December 2008
Depends on how you define 'trench warfare', doesn't it?
(When I worked for Wimpeys, there was a Holy War over who was digging every trench we started)
Certainly trench warfare as we know it, was going well in front of Richmond in 1864, but that was only Colonials, so Europe ignored it. -
Message 3
Posted by SafricanAndy (U7173046) on Monday, 1st December 2008
The British Army's first encounter with trenches, as far as I have read, was during the Boer War, in 1899, when the Boers, under Cronje and de la Rey, had invaded Natal and dug themselves in near the Tugela. I think this was just before the Battle of Colenso. The British then used the same tactic in Natal. It must have certainly been in the minds of the British commanders who subsequently served in the First World War...
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Message 4
Posted by davim19 (U3042016) on Thursday, 11th December 2008
Surely the Trenches that the British troops built during the Siege of Sevastopol in the Crimean War would outdate the examples already given.
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Message 5
Posted by SafricanAndy (U7173046) on Thursday, 11th December 2008
Dude,
there are references to so-called "field works" from many wars and campaigns...The Persians would have been the first then....and if not them, then the Romans....I'm sure the Battle of Bunker Hill in 1775 had such field-works that were very "trench-like"...or the Battle of Vienna in the 17th century...I've understood the post to mean trenches used by both opposing forces on the field, silmutaneously...But whatever trench systems existed prior to the First World War, I don't think they came anywhere near the size and complexity of the aforementioned war... -
Message 6
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Thursday, 11th December 2008
jinks-cider-stash,
I've recently heard that the Maoris were the first people to introduce trench warfare. Is this correct?
I would have thought it was much older.Β
1) Where'd you here that bit of fantasy?
2) Did the Maoris ever engage in trench warfare other than in NZ Army service?
3) Ever hear of Vauban?
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Message 7
Posted by SafricanAndy (U7173046) on Thursday, 11th December 2008
WhiteCamry,
jinks-cider-stash undoubtably heard that bit of "fantasy" on the same repository of knowledge that you so generously provided for a reference on "Vauban" called "Wikipedia". I provide the link here
The Maori developed the system independent of European contact.... -
Message 8
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 12th December 2008
SafricanAndy
The Maori developed the system independent of European contact...Β
Any links to back that up? -
Message 9
Posted by SafricanAndy (U7173046) on Friday, 12th December 2008
Nope, you're on your own there...Should be at the bottom of the article page though...
Warm regards -
Message 10
Posted by jinks-cider-stash (U7847019) on Thursday, 18th December 2008
I actually heard this on the 606 rugby message board. Of late there has been much unsettlement and dissatisfaction, in Britain, over the All Blacks pre-match Haka e.g. is it relevant, what is the correct response etc. There are some Kiwis posting on that board who think they know everything - not just about rugby, but everything that happened, in the world, ever.
The Moaris inventing trench warfare was one of the little gems that came up whilst discussing the Haka’s relevance in today’s sporting world. My initial question posed at the opening of this thread was merely to gather enough supporting knowledge and evidence to dismiss this theory, so the snide comments weren’t necessary.
Since I posted this particular thread I have further researched the topic. Using trenches and ditches has been a standard military tactic for over 2 millennia, and, as pointed out on the Wikipedia page, was successfully used by Muhammad at Yathrib in 627.
The Maori, it seems, did indeed successfully employ their own defensive trenches around settlements, independently, from about 500 years ago, which again, did help them fight off the British in the middle of the 19th Century.
The problem with the Wikipedia page, which is one of my main criticisms of the whole website, is that it then claims that the Maori trenches were in use before those in Europe and America – which is a massive contradiction considering a few paragraphs earlier it is said that the Romans employed this tactic. I guess that is what happens; too many cooks spoil the broth…
I’m pretty sure the pro-Maori version of events would be the one proudly taught in schools around NZ. But they would be no different schools around the world; teaching history whilst bending the facts to suit political agendas. -
Message 11
Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Tuesday, 30th December 2008
I am sure that trenches have been used as both defensive and attacking positions from the time man first fought man, as both man made and the use of the natural terrain.
The question I would think as most relevant is were the trenches of WW1 in trench warfare?And if so who's invention were they or were they just evoloution on taking cover? -
Message 12
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Friday, 9th January 2009
I am sorry to say that I do not think NZ children are taught about Maori using a kind of trench warfare; certainly I did not know about it till relatively recently. I suppose it was just not thought of as that till there has been a bit of revisionist history redressing the balance of a British viewpoint.
Maori used pa (fortified hill-top villages) as defensive and attacking structures (and as their homes) and did surprise their attackers by tunnelling their way out of them when the Europeans expected to be able to wipe them out. There were some nasty surprises when Maori did not quite do what had been expected of them.
This is off the top of my head and I am not knowledgable about war tactics and strategies so do not take it as gospel.
I have just looked at Michael King's Penguin History of New Zealand. He is one of NZ's most respected historians (now deceased). He said, "Imperial troops developed a far higher regard for Maori skills in warfare than they had held previously. In particular, admiration was expressed for the ingenuity of the fortifications at Ohaeawai and Ruapekapeka. In the space of around 30 years Maori had developed their pa from strongholds designed to withstand physical attack with hand-to-hand weapons to those designed to withstand attack by muskets, then cannon and finally to enable virtual trench warfare. Major Mould of the Royal Engineers made detailed reports on the Maori rifle pits and trenches. The effect of those reports was seen in the use of trench warfare in the crimea in 1853 and, of course, even more so in World War I where the machine-gun made underground defences a necessity."
This deosn't make it the first, of course, but does mean that it was used as a model later.
I wouldn't have thought many NZers would talk as if they know everything, but I suppose like others they value their country and its contributions.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 13
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 11th January 2009
Osprey are bringing out a book on this subject in April;
Trike. -
Message 14
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Tuesday, 13th January 2009
Caro m'dear:
This may seem a foolish question, but here it is: Did the Maori have a written language of their own prior to the European invasion? If so, do they make any mention of weapons that could kill at long range (by that I mean: were all of their weapons designed for hand-to-hand fighting, or did they have some, like arrows, slingshots, or throwing spears)?
I ask that since it's possible, if they had such weapons, they might have been using slits or holes in the ground long before the English invaded those islands. If so, digging a trench as described by the English officers would merely be a logical extension of a tactic that they had already perfected.
If they have no written language then we really have no way of knowing what tactics they used in their pre-invasion wars. -
Message 15
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 13th January 2009
No, Maori didn't have a written language before Europeans came, but there are other ways than writing to discover the past. This has certainly made it more difficult for historians - some of the people who spent the early days checking customs with Maori have been discredited a little over the years. And various Maori tribes have different habits too.
However Maori have a very strong oral history, as do all people without writing, and their cultural memory goes back a long way. There were specific tohunga (priest, teacher, doctor, learned person) who kept the knowledge, genealogical and other, carefully. There are also plenty of archaelogical sites which show weapons and food gathering implements. As far as I can tell bows and arrows were never part of their armoury.
People arrived with weapons on meeting Tasman and Cook and others and these were described and pictured.
I think possibly they were tunneling before Europeans came but the need for it became greater with the use of muskets.
Cheers, Caro.
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