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Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 17th November 2008
How on earth can they prove it?The wreck is is 600ish years old,there is only half of it and the chances of interviewing the crew on his theory are impossible seeing as they are well and truly dead and gone!
Vf
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
The thing with history these days, alas, is that you are more likely to get a book, a Tv programme or a film if you come up with some theory no matter how whacky that has not been seen before.
I guess the salutary point in the article is this sentence
"A spokeswoman for The Mary Rose Trust, the charity that preserves the ship, said the new research was the latest in a string of theories on the fate of the warship."
ie it has no more, or should have no more, credence than all the other thoeries until the Dr in question can come up with something more substantial than computer projections and guesses
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
At Gravelines the English ships pumped hundreds of cannon balls into the Spanish Galleons without them sinking. How could Mary Rose be sunk by a hand full of hits by 43 years older French artillery?
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:13 GMT, in reply to VirtuaF in message 1
My understanding has always been that wooden warships are difficult to sink because, like ducks and witches, they float.
By claiming the ship was toppled by wind and an incompetent crew, the Navy's supremacy was maintained, Henry VIII's pride remained intactΒ
Um... so it's better that the pride of your fleet is seen to be badly designed and crewed by a bunch of incompetents than it is that she should be sunk by a powerful enemy, is it? Interesting theory...
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 4.
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Tuesday, 18th November 2008
Wasnt their a theory earlier this year that it was all due to the fact that half her crew was spanish?
So we have the pride of the fleet, poorly designed, badly equipped for the job in hand, with communications difficulties between officers and men and possible enemy action?
Nothings really changed has it?
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
Um... so it's better that the pride of your fleet is seen to be badly designed and crewed by a bunch of incompetents than it is that she should be sunk by a powerful enemy, is it? Interesting theory...Β
Would appear so AN
So we have the pride of the fleet, poorly designed, badly equipped for the job in hand, with communications difficulties between officers and men and possible enemy action?
Nothings really changed has it? Β
No It would appear not.On the plus side at least the survivors were not paraded on Iranian TV's "Im a British Sailor Get Me Out Of Here".
Now that would have been embarrassing......
The problem I have with this guy's work is that he has no real proof.We still dont know exactly the chain of events that lead to HMS Hood's loss (indeed there was a recent argument that she suffered 2 explosions,one forward,on aft),we can on summerize the reasons that HMS Queen Mary and Indefatigable sank.We obviously know that they suffered magazine explosions but not the exact details of the hits themselves.And we never will due to the resulting explosion and the state of the wrecks themselves.And yet we have photographic evidence and eye witness/survivor reports.So how this joker can claim to know the pattern of events 600 years after the event with half a rotten hull for evidence is beyond me.
Vf
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
The Mary Rose sunk by gunfire from a French galley......sounds like a case of Shock and Oar.
Colquhon raises an interesting point about the artillery of this era and if it was possible for a galley to sink a ship. A galley of the time could carry a heavy cannon on it's centreline,firing directly forward with no traverse,the weapon was aimed by manouvering the entire vessel.The Royal Galley of Don Juan of Austria at Lepanto carried a battery of 5 guns, one 48 pounder on the centreline, two 12 pounders and two 6 pounder flanking guns.
A Spanish eyewitness account of the Battle of Prevesa in 1538 relates the sinking of two Spanish ships by gunfire from galleys;
" Barbarossa began to bombard our roundships and they to reply to him. He sent to the bottom one of our ships with 300 Spanish soldiers.He took a galley of the Pope without resistance.He took another of the Venetians.He destroyed another Vicayan roundship in which were 400 Spanish soldiers" In the same battle the Venetian "Great Galleon" fought off repeated Tukish attacks.
VF,since you brought up "Queen Mary" and "Indefatigable",you might like to know that Sir Ben Kingsley is planning a film about Jutland,Kingsley will play Admiral Jellicoe;
Trike
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
Evening Tricerotops
VF,since you brought up "Queen Mary" and "Indefatigable",you might like to know that Sir Ben Kingsley is planning a film about Jutland,Kingsley will play Admiral JellicoeΒ
Very interesting,I wonder if it will be pro Beatty or pro Jellicoe!I hope its the latter,as Jellicoe in mst of the books Ive read alaways comes across as a jolly nice chap
Whereas Beatty is the "Terry Thomas" of the seas!
Vf
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
The Jutland film sounds promising. Plenty of dramatic potential - the boy standing on the burning deck, Death Ride of the Battlecruisers, something wrong with our ships today etc.
However, the cynic in me can't help wondering how an American element will be shoehorned in.
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
However, the cynic in me can't help wondering how an American element will be shoehorned in.Β
Ive got a funny feeling that Beatty's wife was American.....
Oh god,can you imagine Beatty and Ethel on the bow of HMS Lion singing that "there hearts will go on" a la Titanic.
Please god no!
Vf
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 10.
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 24th November 2008
Now, if the Director is Mel Gibson can we take bets on the story line running something along the lines of.
"Peace loving Kaiser Bill, on a save the whale cruise with Green Peace the High seas fleet. is ambushed by the cunning and treacherously evil whale murdering british!!!"
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 10.
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 24th November 2008
Beattys wife was an American according to RK Massie in Castles of Steel.
Perhaps she can be sectertly providing information to the Germans to prevent the British from carrying out their secret evil treacherous plans!!! with three exclamation marks, to murder the whales, the Irish, the Americans and the Kaiser and any one else that doesnt drink tea?
The above is the Mel Gibson version of history.
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
Perhaps she can be sectertly providing information to the Germans to prevent the British from carrying out their secret evil treacherous plans!!! with three exclamation marks, to murder the whales, the Irish, the Americans and the Kaiser and any one else that doesnt drink tea?Β
My favourite story involving Ethel (Beatty wife) was when Beatty was reprimanded for pushing HMS Sussex too hard when she was under his command.
Apparently Ethel is reported to have said
"Reprimand my David?Cant I buy them a new ship?"
Classic.
As for Mel Gibson? He would probably play Hipper ( the glory part) and Tom Cruise would be his first choice for Sheer.
Vf
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 13.
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Tuesday, 25th November 2008
Hi VF.
I am sorely tempted to write the script.
Probably should begin at balmoral in 1913 with KGV pitchforking german nuns and furry baby seals onto an open fire? With Queen mary crocheting an alter cloth for the next free masons black mass?
What do you think?
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 13.
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Wednesday, 26th November 2008
My favourite story involving Ethel (Beatty wife) was when Beatty was reprimanded for pushing HMS Sussex too hard when she was under his command.
Apparently Ethel is reported to have said
"Reprimand my David?Cant I buy them a new ship?"Β
Brilliant!!! VF,
According to the link,the film is being based on the book by Peter Hart. I take it this means "Jutland 1916:Death in the Grey Wastes" which Hart co-wrote with Nigel Steel.
Trike.
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 15.
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 26th November 2008
Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:52 GMT, in reply to Triceratops in message 15
Hmmm... 'Jutland 1916', if that proves to be the title (as the link implies) is a bit of a boring title. Something short and dramatic - like 'Dreadnaught' - would be preferable.
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 16.
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Thursday, 27th November 2008
So long as it is'nt "Carry on Sailor"
Personally I'd favout "Theres something wrong with our ships today"
Does make me wonder how they are going to film it. As far as I know theres only one Jutland period ship left HMS Caroline a light cruiser last I heared she was being used as a RNR depot ship at Belfast.
Presumably its all going to be mock ups and CGI? Which if I get it right gives us about 30 seconds after the film is released before the first complaint that HMS Lion didnt have that shape mast.
Theres space for a good film about it though. I dont think there ever has been one about Jutland? Thinking about it I cant really remember any apart from "Shout at the Devil" that even touch on the navy in World War One.
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
, in reply to message 17.
Posted by WarsawPact (U1831709) on Thursday, 27th November 2008
"Thinking about it I cant really remember any apart from "Shout at the Devil" that even touch on the navy in World War One. "
'The African Queen' portrays an Anglo-Canadian operation...
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
Does make me wonder how they are going to film it. As far as I know theres only one Jutland period ship left HMS Caroline a light cruiser last I heared she was being used as a RNR depot ship at Belfast.Β
She is (HMS Caroline) still in Belfast.If the producers have any sense they could always ask the americans if they could shoot some scenes on USS Texas.She's the right age,the right size and almost has the right size guns.
She also has a tripod mast!
Job done.
Vf
Link to this forum: The first case of Battlecruiseritis?Or a bit of revisionist nonsense
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