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Battles of the Western Front Pt 1Aci

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by poolec2008 (U13629120) on Monday, 13th October 2008

  Another Western Front battle: The Battle of the Somme, 24th June-18th November, 1916.
  
  info of battle:
  
  
  Date 24 July – 18 November 1916
  Location: 49 Degrees, 58' 16" N, 2 Degrees, 17' 32" E. (Somme River, Picardy, France)
  Resulted Victory: Indecisive
  
  Allied Armies:
  -United Kingdom
  -France
  -Australia
  -Canada
  -New Zealand
  -Newfoundland
  -South Africa
  Central Powers:
  German Empire
  
  
  
  French Commanders:
  -Douglas Haig
  -Ferdinand Foch
  
  
  German Commanders:
  -Max von Gallwitz
  -Fritz von Below
  
  
  Brtitish Strength/French Strength:
  -13 British and 11 French divisions (initial)
  -51 British and 48 French divisions (final)
  
  
  German Strength:
  -10Β½ divisions (initial)
  -50 divisions (final)
  
  French and British Losses:
  -620,000 dead, wounded, missing, or captured,
  100 tanks lost,
  
  
  German Losses:
  -782 RFC aircraft lost, 450,000 dead, wounded, missing, or captured
  
  
  On June 24th, 1916 (First day of shelling before attacking), The battle was preceded by 7 days of preliminary artillery bombardment, in which the British fired over 1.7 million shells. Seventeen mines had also been planted in tunnels beneath the German front-line trenches and strongpoints; the three largest tunnels contained about 21 tons (20.7 metric tonnes) of explosives each.
  
  The attack would be made by 13 British divisions (11 from the Fourth Army and two from the Third Army) north of the Somme River and 11 divisions of the French Sixth Army astride and south of the river. They were opposed by the German Second Army of General Fritz von Below. The axis of the advance was centred on the Roman road that ran from Albert in the west to Bapaume 12 miles (19 km) to the northeast.
  
  The following weapons included:
  
  
  The British concentrated and deployed artillery on a scale unprecedented up until then, by which they hoped to destroy German defences prior to the attack.
  Field artillery :
  
  808 18-pounder guns (3.3-inch) : for cutting barbed wire with shrapnel and attacking enemy troops repairing damage
  202 4.5-inch howitzers
  Heavy artillery :
  
  -32 4.7-inch guns : for counter-battery fire
  -128 60-pounder guns (5-inch) : for counter-battery fire
  -20 6-inch guns : cutting barbed wire, and counter-battery fire
  -1 9.2-inch railway gun
  -1 12-inch railway gun
  -104 6-inch howitzers
  -64 8-inch howitzers
  -60 9.2-inch howitzers
  -11 12-inch railway howitzers[2]
  -6 15-inch howitzers
  Mortars :
  
  -2-inch medium mortars : for cuttting barbed wire.
  The French supplied the following artillery to assist the British bombardment :
  
  -60 75-mm guns (gas only)
  -24 120-mm guns
  -16 220-mm howitzers
  
  The First Day of the Somme was fought at the Battle of Albert
  
  
  References:
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 13th October 2008

  hi poole
  and your point is ??
  
  that it was the last volunteer army that we produced
  
  that truly the flower of a generation - patriots all - was destroyed
  
  that we attacked an "old" portion of the line where the hun had had time to dig deeper and better fortifications so they could sit undergrond whilst the shells exploded
  
  that we had given them a clue by cancelling bank holidays to enable us to produce more shells
  
  that german aerial observation picked out british troop movements and made the whole thing obvious (apart from the pre attack bombardment)
  
  that british troops advanced across no mans land in nice lines - walking and some kicking footballs as there was to be no opposition left
  
  that this was an unessercary attack - purely to relieve german pressure on the french
  
  that the confidence of british staff officers sitting in chateaux miles behind the line was such that cavalry units were to be unleashed on the german rear units when we had spanked the 5 miles of trenches
  
  that this was THE fantastic example of lions led by donkeys
  
  if so - i agree
  
  st

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  Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Monday, 13th October 2008

  also don't forget that on 1/07/1916 the Kings Liverpool and The Manchester regiments achieved their objective and liberated Montobaun de Picardie on that day.
  Although there were several pre-mined sites that blew massive craters in the landscape on 1/07/1916 only one was photographed blowing up-the one at Hawthorn Ridge.
  The Loghnagar crater has been bought and preserved by an Englishman,and is also known as La Grande Mine.
  

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  Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Tuesday, 14th October 2008

  There was also the Somme Battle Film, which was shown though Theatres from about September 1916.
  
  The reason I make this point is because I believe that snippets of this film have been included in various documentary's down the years including the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ's Great War, which was made in 1963.
  
  Vera, you mentioned the blowing up of the crater at Loughnagar, and I believe this was included in the original film. There is also a well-known clip of a soldier in the trenches carrying another 'obviously' injured soldier on his back. I have found a claim made in one of the newspapers of the day, of a woman who claimed to recognise a particular soldier who she saw on the silver screen carrying an injured comrade on his back. She actually names him. Of course, having never seen the film myself, I cannot vouch as to whether the soldier claimed by the woman is the same soldier as seen in the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Great War series clip. I will bring in a review of the Somme Battle Film within the next few days, printed in the local paper in September 1916.

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  Posted by vera1950 (U9920163) on Tuesday, 14th October 2008

  Amphion, I don't wish to contradict you re the craters, but it is my belief that Hawthorn Ridge was the only one photographed but it is used to display the blast and is used for any of them.
  However you may have proof to the contrary.

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• Message 6

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  Posted by toffee142 (U12031649) on Tuesday, 14th October 2008

  Hi Poole,
  
  Douglas Haig was not a 'French Commander', he was Commander-in-Chief of the B.E.F.
  
  Stalteriisok, 'lions led by donkeys', a quote made up by Alan Clark. Your view of the Somme, although shared by many, should also focus on the fact that it was after all a victory in terms of attritional damage to Germany. You should also note that after the first day, tactics began to be established within the B.E.F. that would ultimately transform the citizen army into a professional one that won the war.

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  Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Wednesday, 15th October 2008

  Actually Vera, you may be right about it being Hawthorn Ridge in the film. In the Great War series I believe that they doubled a number of scenes. That is, that they showed the same scene whilst the narrative described different events.
  
  The Somme Battle Film was, of course, screened in silence, so it would not of been possible for the 1916 viewer to have known where a particular scene was filmed. I don't even know if the original film still exists in its entirety, but its something I would like to find out.

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 15th October 2008

  hi toffee14
  
  Stalteriisok, 'lions led by donkeys', a quote made up by Alan Clark. Your view of the Somme, although shared by many, should also focus on the fact that it was after all a victory in terms of attritional damage to Germany. You should also note that after the first day, tactics began to be established within the B.E.F. that would ultimately transform the citizen army into a professional one that won the war.
  Μύ

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• Message 9

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 15th October 2008

  hi toffe
  
  sorry trigger happy
  
  Stalteriisok, 'lions led by donkeys', a quote made up by Alan Clark. Your view of the Somme, although shared by many, should also focus on the fact that it was after all a victory in terms of attritional damage to Germany. You should also note that after the first day, tactics began to be established within the B.E.F. that would ultimately transform the citizen army into a professional one that won the war.
  Μύ
  
  the first day ended with 19000 dead and 60000 wounded - lets hope they learnt something then
  
  at the end of the battle 465000 casualties should have given a hint that something was wrong
  
  how about if they did a family attack - the creators of this wonderful battle that they were so confident about the success of - had to put their own families in the vanguard - their sons nephews cousins
  
  would the attack have taken place ??
  
  i think not

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  Posted by toffee142 (U12031649) on Thursday, 16th October 2008

  Hi stalteriisok,
  
  the casualty figures for the first day were 19,000 dead and 38,000 wounded, in all a total of 57,000. 120,000 troops took part on the first day therefore half were casualties, and if you look at most battles, for example Waterloo, thats about the norm.
  
  I understand your point, but lets not forget this was the first 'modern war', the generals and troops were on a very steep learning curve and mistakes were bound to happen, mistakes that would ultimately cost lives but which would in the end be understood, rectified and adapted to create the tactics that finally won the war. A good example would be the use of shrapnel shell over high explosive; it wasn't until the introduction of the 106 fuse that H E became the awesome destructive tool it was, which in turn led to improvements in short barrage work and the creeping barrage used to protect the troops as they advanced. The use of shrapnel shell during the pre bombardment on the Somme was the reason why the German trenches and troops remained virtually unscathed.
  
  And to answer your final question, yes the attack would have gone ahead no matter what. Haig wanted to attack around Ypres, the Somme was a French idea originally as a joint attack and he was just following orders, the French were the senior partners after all. The pressure on Verdun needed to be relieved and the British had to be seen to be doing their bit!

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• Message 11

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 16th October 2008

  hi toffee
  
  u are probably correct - it all seems so inevitable
  
  i love military history - but have only managed to read 2 ww1 books befre giving up in disgust - such a waste of life for no apparent reason
  
  amazing that most of the generals had good ofensive track records but didnt have the imagination to do something different apart from feeding the meat grinder
  
  mind u - i am not sure even in retrospect what i would have done
  
  st

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