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How effective was the real 'lifeline' ?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) on Tuesday, 9th September 2008

  I watched a re-run of a Secret Army episode this morning. The series was about a group in the Belgium resistance who helped shot down British airmen return to Britain.
  
  Does anyone know how effective such 'lifelines' were and how many Allied airmen were returned to Britain with the help of the Resistance?
  
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 9th September 2008

  Colquhoun
  
  2803 RAF aircrew escaped or evaded (returned home from enemy territory without being captured) during WWII. The vast majority of these were evaders. M.I.9 was responsible for co-ordinating the effort to aid these activities.
  
  Bomber Command alone had 23,000 POWs, which suggests a shot-down aircrew member had about a 1% chance of getting back to the UK. I imagine this varied at different stages of the war, and the chances increased after D-Day, and reduced again once the Rhine was reached.
  
  Cheers
  
  LW

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 16th September 2008

  Does anyone know how effective such 'lifelines'wereΒ 
  Very hard to estimate. Much would depend on the stage of the war and where one landed.
  Resistance groups in France were so thoroughly penetrated by Abwehr intelligence ( see work of Chritopher Lloyd, or indeed Claus Barbie) it is highly likely that many escaping airmen were betrayed by the people who claimed to be helping them. Some networks were actually run by the Abwehr.
  Perhaps the Belgian networks were more successful?
  If only 1% of aircrew made it back to the UK via a neutral country, that says a lot.
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Colquhoun (U3935535) on Wednesday, 17th September 2008

  Just a quick check on the arithmetic - 2803 is 12% of 23,000, not 1%. A bit of a difference.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Wednesday, 17th September 2008

  Some of the Bomber Command aircrew did not try to escape, and some were injured and not capable of escape. A 12% success rate represents a greater percentage of those that could escape, and is a good percentage when the logistical difficulties are considered. It's higher than the Luftwaffe recovery rate from the UK for sure.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Wednesday, 17th September 2008

  To Coquhon.
  
  When I mentioned "1%" I was using the figure supplied by Lost weekend.
  which suggests a shot-down aircrew member had about a 1% chance of getting back to the UK.Β 
  (From message 2)
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 17th September 2008

  Which, unfortunately, was a mistake, because not only cannot I not do basic maths, I posted the wrong POW figure. I apologise to all.
  
  Some 13,000 (not 23,000) Commonwealth aircrew were repatriated from German Stalag Lufts at the end of the war. Bomber Command recorded 9,838 POW, and Fighter command 601, so presumably the rest came from the other Commands and the Tactical Air Forces.
  
  2,803 is the right figure for Evaders and Escapers, but very few of these were escapers. It would seem the best thing, in terms of getting away, was not to fall into enemy hands.
  
  This would suggest that about 1 in 6 (17%, not 1%) of the aircrew who reached the ground in one piece in Occupied Europe had a chance of successfully getting away.
  
  M.I.9 ran the escape networks and SOE the sabotage ones. For operational security reasons, they tried to keep them separate, although obviously there were links. Janine Boitard (the lady whose name Darryl Zanuck used to give his mistress a part in The Longest Day) ran an escape safe house in Caen, and spent D-Day persuading her latest batch of downed aircrew that they had to move south, away from the beachhead, instead of toward it.
  
  I don't know if the Belgian networks were better than the French ones, but the main Belgian one is credited with getting at least 400 aircrew away, mainly to Spain. I believe the sabotage networks were more heavily penetrated than the escape ones - I'm sure, as they were the greater threat, they were a more important target.
  
  Apologies again. I posted in a hurry, but that's no excuse for not checking my typing.
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Wednesday, 12th November 2008

  With respect to all surviving members of MI9; notation and reference should be discussed with those that really do expect and more importantly WANT to survive the current DEBACLE: NOW. Please note that the FILM; 'One of Our Aircraft is Missing' was partly discussed and prepared in 1934. Action was taken in 1937 in the NETHERLANDS and particularly in POLDER / HOLLAND to film part of the detail; this saved countless lives in BOMBER ACTION during the early phase of the conflict, when the targeting was consistent with the SPECIFIC requirements of D.NI (Directorate. Naval Intelligence): prior to the release of the film and it's discussion by the general public in 1942. What happened afterwards is still a matter of debate; partly dependant on AIRCRAFT TYPE / BOMB LOAD and AIRCREW DISCIPLINE: But also TARGETING INFORMATION and an attitude to war itself...Inotherwords; MIND THE STEP: LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP. There are no HAPPY LANDINGS in this game when you annoy the 'natives' in punitive action; 'Expect TODT SPADE and certain DEATH. NOT CAPTURE / IN TOTAL WAR...'
  ps. a number of actors seen on film were former or serving members of the RFC and RAF. They had everthing to gain by being in HOLLAND in 1938...

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Wednesday, 12th November 2008

  getting at least 400 aircrew away, mainly to SpainΒ 
  
  Once in Spain, did airmen still have trouble getting back to Blighty?
  
  My question centres on the Spanish authorities' response to having combatant aircrew (and member of the other arms of the forces no doubt) on their soil. Did the Franco authorities (who, although being neutral in the war, must have leanings towards the Germans) make it difficult for Allied airmen to return home? And I assume German agents were at work in Spain too, doing their best to limit the numbers of airmen getting home.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by pc1973 (U13716600) on Wednesday, 26th November 2008

  There is an excellant book on this subject called 'Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Run' which mainly deals with the individual stories of the men who made it home and the networks that supported them. Not just airman either, a few Dunkirk straglers managed to make it all the way to Spain
  
  It seems when in Spain if caught they would be detained for a few months (For as long as they could get away with as a neutral country). If they were lucky enough to made it to the British Embassey then they usually got home fairly shortly after this.
  
  It's worth noting that not all downed airman tried to escape back to Blighty some had made the decision (particually if they were unlucky enough to land In Germany herself) that they would just hand themselves in bypassing the Gestapo treatment they would get if they had been picked up after being on the run and then forced to betray anyone that had helped them.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Thursday, 27th November 2008

  This may seem odd to some but as I look out onto the fresh snow here in northern Manitoba
  I am perplexed what the /%&^:<( or where is
  Blighty????

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by MB (U177470) on Friday, 28th November 2008

  Blighty = Britain
  
  In WWI a Blighty Wound was one serious enough to get sent back to Britain but not serious enough to kill you.
  
  Like much British army slang, it is originally Hindustani.
  
  
  
  

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