Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
Small unit ops WW2
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Friday, 15th August 2008
we all know about the special ops in ww2 - the films - cockleshell heroes, heroes of telemark, guns of Navaronne, Bruneval, even Dieppe
we never hear about the other sides ops
how about -
the Granville raid
Eben Emael
and of course otto skorcenys rescue of mussolini
but of course these were the Hun and not worth a film
what was better than these ?
st -
Message 2
Posted by Tom Hreben (Ex Raybans13) (U8719631) on Friday, 15th August 2008
stalteriisok,
The well know film The Heroes of the Telemark has to be up there, I know little about the actual raid itself but what the men went through prior (i.e. arctic survival etc) is quite incredible.
The Bruneval raid by the Paras has to be another good example but so unknown. Perhaps the capture of the Merville battery by the Paras on the night of 5/6th june 1944 should have had a film made about it.
If you've read about a man called Vladimir Peniakoff, he should have had a film made about him but again recognition only goes to the larger ones. Read Popski's Private Army but the above. Very good book and exceptional accomplishments.
Tom Hreben -
Message 3
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Friday, 15th August 2008
Tom & ST -
as we know the British Film Industry is now a shadow of it's former self in the heyday of the Ealing Studios - so I wouldn't hold my breath to see any of the German exploits or British come to that as tales of Popski's and the LRDG - SAS - et al are not American so don't count.
many of us are aware of many small units activities as we saw them first hand and Popki's finally was dismantled near Klagenfurt- where my friend Ron got his autograph at a race meet in early '45. I saw them myself practicing at Cattolica to land later at Lago Commachio in Northern Italy.
Cheers -
Message 4
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Friday, 15th August 2008
ST,
Axis special ops.
There was the attack by Italian frogmen against the Mediterranean Fleet at Alexandria.
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Message 5
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Sunday, 17th August 2008
triceratops
superb - i had never head of that one - AND by the cowardly eyties lol
better not make a film of that then - or let the british public know about it
what about the sinking of the royal oak in Scapa flow - the impregnable fortress !!
the Granville op is superb tho - lets just borrow some coal
- that would have been legend if it was a brit op
arnhem is a big legend - eben emael is unknown
do u get my point
st -
Message 6
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Sunday, 17th August 2008
Stalteriisok,
Too late I'm afraid, I don't recall the title but there is a film from the 50's dealing with the Italian Chariot crews and the British attempts to stop them.
I suspect that Eben Emael is unknown to the wider public as it was carried out by the Germans (the enemy).
Gunther Prien and the crew of the U-47 take pride of place for sheer nerve, sailing right into the heart of the Lions Den so to speak.
There are no end of German Commando/small unit type raids etc, alot of them carried out by the Brandenburg units.
The Kriegsmarine had the Biber and Neger midget subs, Marine-Schreiber Obergefreiter Walter Gerhold won the Ritterkreuz for damaging the Cruiser Dragon with a Neger.
The Luftwaffe flew covert missions using initially Special Squadron Rowehl and then KG200.
The Germans also used frogmen for special missions such as the attack on the Nijmegen bridge on the night of the 28/29th September 1944. -
Message 7
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 18th August 2008
hi steelers
eben emael - awesome and at low cost - high efficiency - ww2 was poised on this op
what hollywood title ?
tell more about the branderburg unita - read somewhere that the germans werent interested in small commando unit ops as they didnt influence the course of the war !!
st -
Message 8
Posted by WarsawPact (U1831709) on Monday, 18th August 2008
There was much talk of German saboteurs and 5th columnists in Holland/Belgium/France in 1940 - in advance of the German attacks. Was there any reality to these fears, or was it just mass hysteria on the part of the Allies?
Similar operations were said to be carried out in co-ordination with the Ardennes Offensive in 1944 - Germans in American uniforms misdirecting Allied reinforcements. -
Message 9
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Monday, 18th August 2008
Stalteriisok
The name of the film was The Silent Enemy from 1958, the link will give more info. It's not terribly accurate apparently, but then it is about 25 years since I've seen it, and it gives an idea of how the chariots were used.
I'll give you more info on the Brandenburg units later in the week when I have more time. -
Message 10
Posted by Steelers708 (U1831340) on Monday, 18th August 2008
Brandenburg units were used in the 1940 campaign in the West, units of 7-9 men plus an interpreter were used to seize several bridges in Holland and Belgium, approximately 3 hours before the main German attack began.
In the Ardennes offensive 4 man teams were sent out in Allied equipment etc to cause confusion behind American lines prior to and at the start of the offensive, they belonged to Otto Skorzeny's PanzerBrigade 150.
Major Friedrich-August von der Heydte also carried out the last large scale wartime parachute drop by German forces during the Ardennes offensive.
His Kampfgruppe consisted of approximately 800 men but only about half of these landed near the DZ, mainly due to the lack of training of the Ju-52 pilots, many of whom were novice pilots with no experience of flying the Ju-52, let alone flying them in formation. -
Message 11
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 19th August 2008
steelers
superb - never heard of them before
after reading this tho
impressed
st -
Message 12
Posted by MB (U177470) on Thursday, 21st August 2008
There is a reference in the book Commando Country to a report written just after the war about a German raid on a British radar station. The report was by Laycock so would seem to be reliable.
MB -
Message 13
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Friday, 22nd August 2008
ST,
The film Tora, Tora, Tora, shows a Japanese special op,with a two man minisub trying to get into Pearl Harbor on 7th December '41.
This is quite genuine as five minisubs were launched from mother subs to attack Pearl.
Also came across this;
A suicide mission by Japanese commandoes on an American airfield.
Something similar was planned by the SAS during the Falklands War to destroy exocet armed Etendards,but was cancelled.
Trike. -
Message 14
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Saturday, 23rd August 2008
triceratops
hi - superb - never heard of that before - and if aircraft werent destroyed there would have been more - how many more are there we dont know about
frightening - our ops had a "get them out " bit built in - the japs didnt seem to put that into the plan
did u read about the attack on a us airbase the other day - multiple suicide bombers - luckily it failed - but sure makes the planning easier !!
didnt an sas op go ahead - when they found the helicopter in chile - sas teams were going to watch when the etendards took off and report on it
st -
Message 15
Posted by RedGuzzi750 (U7604797) on Saturday, 23rd August 2008
There is a book called "The Frogmen" that deals with the British underwater warfare, but also covers in good depth the Italians (the pioneers) and the German operations. Particularly nasty was the training those early British volunteers went through - they were trying to learn stuff the Italians had learned years ago.
The German operations in 2 man subs from the Sheldt were very effective at one stage. Each sub had 2 torpedoes, and had an amazing range.. -
Message 16
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 31st August 2008
ST,
didnt an sas op go ahead - when they found the helicopter in chile - sas teams were going to watch when the etendards took off and report on itÌý
Operation Mikado;
according to this,the helicopter found in Chile was the recce unit meant to provide intel on the defences.
Trike. -
Message 17
Posted by toffee142 (U12031649) on Monday, 1st September 2008
A good book on German special forces during WWII is 'Kommando' by James Lucas. Well worth a read!!
-
Message 18
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Monday, 1st September 2008
In reply to the original post and Fort Eben Emael in particular.
The late father of a good friend of mine was Glider pilot / Fallschirmjäger and Landed one of the DFS 230 Gliders on the fort.
As one of several boys born into the family farm, he decided to join up in 1938 as being the youngest stood no chance of inheriting.
He had joined a local gliding school and obtained his wings.
Then into the Luftwaffe he went.
I spoke to Bert several times and he mentioned a lot of training before hand on a similar fort, I think in the Sudetenland.
He also told me that not all the weapons had been installed within the fort, which came as a surprise to them.
Bert was seriously wounded when landing in Crete and hid under a bush for three days as the locals were apparently killing the wounded Germans that they could find.
He was recovered by German forces and hospitalised.
Some interesting posts.
Tom -
Message 19
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 1st September 2008
Re: message 18.
Tom,
about the fort at Eben Emael:
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 20
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Tuesday, 2nd September 2008
Re Message No 19,
Paul,
I tried the link, but it will not let me access. Searching the sight also proved negative, but I googled Eben-Emael and receive many hits and lots of useful information.
Apparently, only the best glider pilots were used and they were expected to land their gliders within 20 meters of their specified targets.
The empty turrets that were found were apparently 'Dummy' and were intended only for show, leading to the belief that there was more weaponry inside the fort.
I live close to both Spandau Citadell and Fort Hahnaberg at Staaken.
Earlier this summer I visited the latter when there was a festival taking place.
I was tempted to purchase a book on Fort Eben-Emael. I now regret not buying it.
I will look out for it on my next visit.
Regards
Tom -
Message 21
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 2nd September 2008
Exsuse me Tom, I think I made a mistake in my hurry. One letter or sign is enough you know
Warm regards,
Paul.
PS: Send it in a hurry before closing time. -
Message 22
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Wednesday, 3rd September 2008
Paul,
Thanks for resending the link. I have just viewed the footage.
Regards.
Tom -
Message 23
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Wednesday, 3rd September 2008
Tom,
This is a documentary in 5 parts,run time in total is about 44 minutes, about the assault on Eban-Emael.
Trike. -
Message 24
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Wednesday, 3rd September 2008
Trike,
Thanks for the links and will view them soon.
Regards
Tom -
Message 25
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 3rd September 2008
Re: Message 23.
Trike,
thank you very much for the links. I would provide them to my Belgian friends of the ABBL forum, but unfortunately most of them are French speaking and understand no English. But I will do it nevertheless, because the footage speaks for itself.
The link from ABBL I provided comes also from an English documentary I think, I have a vague rememberance that I met during research the same film in English. Yes and if you look even the maps are with English text. But yesterday it was to late to do reserch for the English version. And yet a lot to reply at on the French history messageboard.
I have yet seen it many times here on these boards: When one has a difficult search for a subject you came in as the savior in need and you provided the "exact!" required link. Thank you for those many occasions when I was helped together with the other ones.
If you understand German. I have a link from a research institute, which gives all the "wochenschaus" (weekviews) during WWII. Hours and hours of footage. (of course propaganda, but nevertheless very informing).
Warm regards and thanks again for all! your links.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 26
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Thursday, 4th September 2008
Here's an obit on LCdr Ian Fraser who won a VC on a minisub operation:
Worthy of a good movie. -
Message 27
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 4th September 2008
wow
yet another fantastic tale we know nothing about -
if its not in a film its forgotten
st -
Message 28
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Sunday, 7th September 2008
Stalteriisok,
yet another fantastic tale we know nothing about -
if its not in a film its forgottenÌý
How so very true. How many more untold stories of heroism are there yet to emerge from the secrecies of wartime.
The Free society of today has a lot to thank these many untold heroes.
Regards
Tom -
Message 29
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 7th September 2008
Paul,
Afraid I don't understand German. Thanks anyway.
Trike. -
Message 30
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Wednesday, 10th September 2008
Re Message No 25.
Paul,
I would be very grateful if you could provide the link for the German research institute in order to view the material you mentioned.
Regards
Tom -
Message 31
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 11th September 2008
bashfulsmudger
Stalteriisok,
yet another fantastic tale we know nothing about -
if its not in a film its forgotten
Quoted from this message
How so very true. How many more untold stories of heroism are there yet to emerge from the secrecies of wartime.
The Free society of today has a lot to thank these many untold heroes.
Regards
Tom
Ìý
my 15 year old daughter has been brought up visiting historical sites - and has been interested (possibly)
we did Dover castle and the dynamo rooms and tunnels - she was still interested
BUT after it was over she asked me - what happened at Dunkirk dad??
she wasnt taught it at school !!!
unbelievable
st -
Message 32
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Friday, 12th September 2008
Stalteriisok,
my 15 year old daughter has been brought up visiting historical sites - and has been interested (possibly)
we did Dover castle and the dynamo rooms and tunnels - she was still interested
BUT after it was over she asked me - what happened at Dunkirk dad??
she wasnt taught it at school !!!
unbelievable Ìý
I can well understand your despair.
History, especially the Second World War is not high on the teaching agenda.
It appears to be a subject just loosely touched upon.
I can tell you that the same is true here in Berlin and with a 15 year old daughter attending a Gymnasium (Grammer) school, the subject of the 1939/45 war is just not gone into in any detail.
The first World war was taught the last school year, but again in no real detail.
I will just have to wait and see what transpires this year.
I Have travelled to the Concentration camp at Oranienburg (Sachsenhausen), just north of Berlin, which incidentaly is now an excellent place to study mans inhumany to his fellow man.
My two eldest daughters will be taken for a visit just to see and read what took place within the walls and electrified fences!
To me that is real history, even if it means a shock for them.
Regards
Tom -
Message 33
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Friday, 12th September 2008
bashfulsmudger
are u german ??
i can understand ww2 not being taught in germany - the guilt thing, the defeat thing, and the absolute waste of life thing
but as its our "finest hour" i cant understand our kids not being taught about it -
thinking back - i didnt get taught it
its only since i left school that i got interested - and for the first time read about the russian front -
alemain, dunkirk, arnehm etc were mentioned tho
bit sad here - i would love to see aushwitz or a similar site - bet that was enlightening when u saw one for the first time
tho -
Message 34
Posted by Bashfulsmudger (U11287440) on Saturday, 13th September 2008
Stalterisok,
Bashfulsmudger
are u german ??Ìý
The answer is no.
I am British, a true lancashire lad, from Preston.
I am a retired Police officer and retired to Berlin in 2002 where I started a new life.
It is a long story, but involved attending a 40th Birthday party of a friend in Berlin.
At the party I was introduced to a friend of the family that had within the last year lost her husband to Cancer at the age of 40.
She was left with 3 young girls.
We became friends exchanging emails and I made many more trips to Berlin and the rest is history!
The girls are now growing up fast!
I have to say that History is not their favourite subject, but I try to tell them that the more you read the better you understand.
Both parents in law were berliners and 8 and 10 years old at the wars end, so they both have experiences of the Berlin Bombing campaign and the Russians arriving.
As for me I had no imput from school about WW2 History as it was a recent memory and most if not all of our fathers were in the military during the war.
I have just read a lot and have a large collection of books, which I have accumulated over the years.
When you visit a concentration camp, it is a most sobering experience and brings tears to the eyes, especially when reading some of the graphic explainations of what occurred.
Regards
Tom -
Message 35
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Saturday, 13th September 2008
hi bs
what a good tale - thanx
i always think when i look at village/town war memorials and see the list of local families - how much longer those lists are in germany - ww2 = 6 million dead
all of them were a son brother or father - same as us
always wonder what the germans think of the concentration camps - i would feel deeply ashamed - bet they do
st -
Message 36
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Monday, 23rd February 2009
Monday. 23rd February, 2009. 11:18GMT
Re. 'Kommando'
NB. Whilst reference to GERMAN ACTION is limited in film (principally seen in 'Went the Day Well' and 'The Eagle has Landed'); the problems associated with the subject are partly the Anglo - centric nature of the 'weird Detail': Start first with 'The Eastern Front' and DISCUSS.
My suggestion would be 'MAD Action' vis a v. Gran Sasso (1943) and the BUILDER PAY that was Operation: Mouse / HUNGARY, 1944. -
Message 37
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Tuesday, 24th February 2009
Tuesday. 24th February, 2009. 13:37GMT
Re. 'Kommando'
NB. When discussing the 'exploits' of the AXIS FORCE and 'small unit ops' during 'World War Two' (ending as it were with either 'Unconditional Surrender', the 'Three Powers Act' or the return of Prisoner's of War - principally German Nationals after 1948) and their description or appearance in FILM and indeed TELEVISION: the 'weird Detail' is the conflation not necessarily of fact with fiction (as FACTION) but the incidence of ESPIONAGE or 'counter - intelligence' which permeates the 'cabin of work', dating from the 2nd World War. The world in which the 'Abwer' / Canaris type 'Brandenburger' wears a business suit rather than a recognisable uniform, with some type of indentification based on a Passport or Paybook; raises the question as to whether intelligence gathering or observation and surveillance ie. 'espionage' behind the 'enemy's line': can be separated from 'small unit ops' unless the correct uniform is worn at all times. In the case of 'Went the Day Well or 'The Eagle has Landed' or indeed 'The Spy in Black'; the PROPER uniform is often concealed, although discarded if there is a suggestion that there will be BATTLE or 'assasination': as demanded by the initial PLAY...
ps. Remember; where the film subject attempts to describe ALLIED concerns behind the AXIS 'front - line' and faces infiltration and active GERMAN 'counter - intelligence'; such as that described in the film 'Guns of Navarone' / 1961: then the 'small unit ops' is principally ESPIONAGE led... -
Message 38
Posted by ToonArmyHolland (U1679153) on Sunday, 22nd March 2009
hey all ,
I work within a stones throw of Fort Eben Emael and have visited it twice - volunteers open it (and several of the other Liege forts) on various Sundays throughout the year - they have French, Dutch, German and English speaking guides and its well worth a visit(the last time i was there it was 5 Euros entry)
The website is - its very easy to get to the place so i would suggest it to anyone, especially as much of the damage caused by attacking the fort is left in place exactly where it fell in May 1940.
When you hear the stories of the errors made, you cant believe that the Belgians spent so much money building the place only to make schoolboy errors in running it.... -
Message 39
Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Monday, 23rd March 2009
Isoroku Yamamoto, the brilliant naval commander of the japanese navy in WWII, and the man who carried out the Pearl Harbor raid, was targeted and killed by a small force of the USAF at Bougainville in the Pacific. It was a precise and calculated raid, against all odds, to intercept and shoot down his plane on a visit to Bougainville.
It succeeded, and it was a terrible loss to the Japanese. His death wasn't announced for months, it was such a blow.
-
Message 40
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 25th March 2009
hi toon army
eban emael - the stuff hollywood fim makers dreams are made of
small elite (handsome of course - bronson et al ) group of wisecracking fearless warriors attack an impregnable fortress garrisoned by brutish thugs
trouble is the attackers were the brutish nazi thugs and the defenders were the nice belgians lol
seriously tho - how many people in england have actually heard of it - when it must be the finest small op ever !!
st -
Message 41
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 25th March 2009
Re: Message 38.
Toon from Holland,
we met here already once on these boards.
I was in a forum of Belgian, mostly Walloon re-inactors. In fact I am still in that forum "ABBL" but have no time to attend anymore with all my backlog here and on a French messageboard. If I remember it well one of the forum is a guide in Eben Emael.
About the fall of the fort I found on You tube some British document, even dubbed in French. But here I give the original English version:
As for part 3/5, 4/5 and 5/5 you can find it on the right in the related videos...
I am too tired to write down all this letters and numbers without any fault and to make the difference between an "0" and an "O"...
Warm regards from your friend,
Paul.
PS. You explained already once to me how you came to that name of yours but now I am forgotten it again after some years... -
Message 42
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 25th March 2009
Addendum to message 41.
Toon,
oops, it was already mentioned by my friend Tricaterops in this thread. And the worsest of all I discussed the matter with him in 2008.
Hmm, all my work "umsonst" as the Germans say...(in vain?)
Growing old? No, I don't think it is a new phenomena...
Warm regards again.
Paul. -
Message 43
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Thursday, 14th May 2009
Thursday. 14th May, 2009. 09:47BST
Re. 'Kommando'
NB. As noted previously; whilst reference to GERMAN ACTION as the 'mainspring' or 'king - pin' (ie. as the main protaganist) is limited in film; there are conflations of 'fact and fiction' which reveal the 'German ORDER' from that side of 'the stage' and from 'behind the VELVET CURTAIN': which are buried in other works. As to whether the 'weird Detail' rings; 'true or hollow': is a moot point. Please try to remember that 'a hollow bell' is only found in a CHANTRY.
For future reference; try viewing; 'The Man Who Never Was'; GB; 1955: re. 'Polar Bear'.
ps. it is my considered opinion that the 'Bank sequence' is 'here and now'. -
Message 44
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Tuesday, 30th June 2009
Tuesday. 30th June, 2009. 10:01BST
Re. 'Kommando'
NB. Looking back; over the few post war films that have been made: where there has been a 'undercover GERMAN angle': I can't help but remember the final sequence in 'Where Eagles Dare'. The German; 'lived his lie' to the end and took his version of events with him: when he stepped out of the Junkers Ju 52... -
Message 45
Posted by RSS_643_IKWIG (U13662597) on Tuesday, 30th June 2009
Tuesday. 30th June, 2009. 11:11BST
Re. 'Kommando'
NB. As for the above; the sequence probably epitomises the 'German ORDER': where to talk is VERBOTEN. Better to die unknown; than to be thought of as a 'rat': which needs to be 'exterminated'. Thus the depiction of potential 'German DARING DO'; is compromised by the lack of known sources: as far as 'tales to tell'.
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