Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Set Europe Ablaze!!!
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Message 1.Β
Posted by VESTURIS (U10660293) on Friday, 25th April 2008
Did the resistance movement accomplish their
goals before D-Day and were they truly disruptive
to the Nazi stanglehold? -
Message 2
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Sunday, 27th April 2008
The most important contribution of the resistance in Western Europe was probably its intelligence gathering operation. This was complementary to other sources of information, such as code breaking, and air reconnaissance, so a lot depended on the staff in London who correlated information from different sources and put out requests for answers to specific questions. One of the most remarkable coups, for example, was the smuggling of V-2 parts from a crash site in Poland to England.
The second most important operation was the quiet sabotage of industries in occupied Europe that were directed to work for the benefit of the German was machine. For example, the Luftwaffe ordered the development and production of some aircraft types (of lesser importance) in France, but was confronted with seemingly endless delays, appalling production quality, and some outright sabotage.
Another relatively important operation were the efforts to return downed Allied aircrew to England. While this did not make a significant material contribution and the cost in captured resistance workers was very high, it did provide a boost to morale.
All this was low-key and occurred with relatively little violence. Resistance operations in Western Europe did trigger some level of violence and murder, often between collaborators and resistance groups, but this had relatively little impact on German operations. Attacks on railroads were common but the damage was easily repaired.
It changed in 1944 when a major campaign of sabotage was planned to coincide with the Allied landings in Normandy. The concerted campaign of sabotage, at a time when the German forces urgently needed to move towards the front, was quite effective. There was also a major uprising of the Maquis on the Vercors plateau, which required substantial forces to put down.
In later stages of the fighting in Europe, the resistance was most useful in bringing information, providing local guides, and sabotaging German demolition efforts.
On the whole I think it is fair to say that the resistance movement could achieve very little on its own. It became effective when it could combine efforts with regular troops, either in gathering intelligence or in coordinating its attacks with major offensives.
It was different in the Balkans and in occupied Russia, regions which were immensely more difficult to police for the occupiers and were large partisan forces could be built up. Even so these partisan forces, left to themselves, often tended to degenerate into banditry, and needed firm guidance to be effective. -
Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 27th April 2008
From what I gathered, the French factions spent more time fighting each other than the Germans, or shopping each other to the above. It is also a fact that if as many French were in the resistance as said they were, the Germans who have needed its whole army just to try and keep the lid on it. Anybody see the pictures in yesterdays Daily Mail of Paris during the war. Puts a whole new light on the French.
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Message 4
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 27th April 2008
Both Mutatis and Grumpy Fred are correct.
Just as the 'Life of Brian' is closer to the political realities of the 'Holy Land' in the 1st century AD, than we might think; so too is the TV prog. 'Allo, 'Allo closer to the realities of life in occupied Belgium/France in 1942, than the Resistance would have us believe.
We all like to think we would be defiant patriots if our country became occuopied by enenmy forces, but collaboration is the more common outcome. The resistance was penetrated widely and the Amiens cell virtually run by the Germans. Resistance memebership doubled after the liberation of Paris, suggesting that many French 'patriots' decided not to nail their colours to the mast until the outcome was assured.
But what Mutatis said is also true. The disposition of the French (both northern and Vichy) was to help the allied war effort where possible. RAF aircrew were forwarded to trusty friends and intelliegence was certainly vital around 1943/4. We need to keep in mind that we now know the outcome of the war and the date of VE day. To the French, in 1941, this was far from certain.
We Brits must not make fun of French collaboration, where this happened.
In Jersey and Guernsey the Gestapo asked for the names and addresses of Jewish families resident in the Channel Isles. The British police collaborated by supplying this information.
Perhaps the saddest and most hypocritical sight is the film of young French women, who had become lovers of German soldiers during the occupation, having their heads shaved (and suffering other indignities) at the hands of local 'patriots'. I always wonder how brave these 'patriots' had been, prior to the liberation?
1,800 years ago the British, at least those who had not been killed by the Romans, tended to embrace Roman customs and ideology. Such is war. -
Message 5
Posted by MB (U177470) on Monday, 28th April 2008
It should be remembered that the intelligence gathering was done mainly by SIS whereas SOE was mainly involved in sabotage.
MB -
Message 6
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 28th April 2008
I think this is what Fred referred to;
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Message 7
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Monday, 28th April 2008
I'm confused why these photos have caused such a furore in France. What do people think the French did under occupation during the war? A small number were actively in the Resistance movement, some collaborated, the vast majority just got on with their lives as best as possible. People carried on working, spending money in shops, falling in love, having families. Don't the photos just highlight that?
And the comment in the article about none of the photos showing the Resistance at work is just plain silly! -
Message 8
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 28th April 2008
Stoggler,
I think it was in referrence to the sufferings of the average Parisian under the occupation.
I've laso seem figures that would suggest more than a few colaborated. But as U3280211 has said above, how many of us in the UK wouldn't have done the same? -
Message 9
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Monday, 28th April 2008
I've laso seem figures that would suggest more than a few colaborated. But as U3280211 has said above, how many of us in the UK wouldn't have done the same?Β
Too true. We can never know though, can we.
And is there a definition of collaboration? Would someone with a business doing some normal work for the German occupiers be classed as collaborating? -
Message 10
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Monday, 28th April 2008
|It was was deemed by some ever so brave 'resistance' members that being cordial to the German's was collaboration.
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Message 11
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 28th April 2008
Again, didn't in one country, the Civil Service just carry on as normal, and helped with the round up of the Jews. But as said. what would we do? We like to think we are brave and would resist. But I think most of us would do what we do now. Just see the Germans as a new Government and get on with. A friend of mine is a senior Civil Servant in the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Office. He has a sign on his desk that says. "It doesn't matter who you vote for. The Government always gets in." I would imagine that both local and national Government (Perhaps more so those at the top of the heap) would cooperate with the occupying power. Middle ranking ones would do what they have always done, and blame the person above. and those at the bottom would just obey orders and worry about paying their bills.
G F. -
Message 12
Posted by MB (U177470) on Monday, 28th April 2008
I remember reading a book about the internees on the Isle of Man, many of who were Jews who had escaped from Germans. They were quite concerned that if the Germans had invaded the British authorities and police would just hand them over to the invading Germans. I suspect they had reason to worry too.
As has been written, most people in France just got on with their life during the occupation and tried to keep out of trouble. But liberation most of them then claimed to have paid an active part in the Resistance and also turned on a few unfortunate women who had often had contact with the Germans in various forms.
There is a story in a book by an author who lived in France after the war (Leslie Thomas?). He got to know many of the older people in the village where he worked and most had been involved in the local Resistance group. They told him that if ever needed help in that area that he should mention the code name of this group. One day he was late arriving at a nearby railway station for the Paris train and could not find a parking place. A jobsworth came to tell him to move his car, he remembered what he had been told so mentioned the code name. He was immediately waved into a staff parking place and the Paris train was held up for him. This was many years after the war.
MB -
Message 13
Posted by cmedog47 (U3614178) on Tuesday, 29th April 2008
I have always heard that there were a lot more people in the French resistance in 1945 than 1944.
A bit like the US civil rights movement--one can find a lot more elderly folks reminiscing about their participation in the marches and sit-ins than were ever to have been found marching and protesting at the time. -
Message 14
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Wednesday, 30th April 2008
I had an exchange of letters recently with the Airborne Museum, having found a photo of a neighbour (now dead) who claimed to have been dropped at Arnhem.
He had been in the Paras, true, but the historian was able to show that he qualified as a Para in March 1945, too late for Arnhem.
I noted my disappointment but the historian said:
"Oh, that's not unusual. If everyone who claimed to have been at Arnhem had actually been there, there would not have been enough gliders and DC3's to carry them all" -
Message 15
Posted by Mani (U1821129) on Wednesday, 30th April 2008
U3280211
I can confirm such stories - My old man's RSM (Who jumped at Arnhem) used to say much the same thing (My old man was later my RSM - and I met his ols RSM many times).
He said he overhear many people talking about Arnhem who he knew for a fact weren't there. -
Message 16
Posted by cmedog47 (U3614178) on Thursday, 1st May 2008
About 1 person in 5 who claims to have been a US Navy Seal actually was, there are far more silver star recipients than were actually ever awarded, and the sniper fire in Bosnia has gotten much worse over the years.
I know a local lady who got furious when she asked a local historian to get the details of her revered ancestors service to the Lost Cause in the War Between the States--and he came back to report that in contrast to what had been told in her family for generations, he fought for the Union--a shameful lineage in her neighborhood. -
Message 17
Posted by SONICBOOMER (U3688838) on Friday, 2nd May 2008
That's true enough Kurt, a few years ago I saw a website dedicated to exposing fake SEALS.
The experience of the Channel Islands under occupation is not a pointer to elsewhere, since for mainly propagander reasons, the Germans greatly reinforced these islands.
To no good military reason, they were in that respect worthless, even ignored by the British until the general German surrender in 1945 ended the occupation.
But this meant that the ratio of German troops to locals, was extraordinarily high, I think if the same ratio applied to France that German garrison would have been several tens of millions strong!
Surely divisions in the French Resistance just reflected the fractured nature of French politics in the 1930's, which was a very significant factor in the defeat of 1940.
Churchill of course used emotive terms like 'set Europe ablaze' as organisations like SOE were one of the few ways to directly hit at German occupied Europe for some years, aside from the development of Bomber Command into something a lot more destructive.
But his own experiences in the Boer Wars had convinced Churchill of the utility of what we now call 'Special Forces', from SOE to the Commandos, none of whom was popular with the traditional military and intelligence commanders, only Churchill's strong advocacy of them allowed them to survive in the early years. -
Message 18
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 2nd May 2008
To Kurt.
the sniper fire in Bosnia has gotten much worse over the years.Β
Nice one!
On our first visit to Frisco, about 15 years ago, we walked along the waterfront, early evening, and were asked to contribute to the welfare of the many 'Viet Nam veterans' who sit in their wheel chairs shooting the breeze.
One guy, who had a deeply touching story to tell, described how he had lost his legs in Khe Sanh and escaped death by the most extraordinary luck. I gave him $5.
There was an instant cheer from his comrades who laughed their socks off.
One said:-
"Everything that guy has lost is due to shooting himself up with dope". His veins collapsed so his legs had to follow.
I had been smoked like a kipper.
On the subject of Navy Seals.
My cousin who lives in Bar Harbor, Maine, has this story (I hope it is true) of the day the Seals steamed into town on fast attack boats, on a 'goodwill' tour. They ran into rocks at 20 knots, polluted the coastal lobster and shellfish beds when diesel leaked from their ruptured tanks, stood on deck to salute the locals while being winched-off by a rescue craft.
Goodwill has been lowish since then, apparently.
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