Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Fall In you lot.
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by youngjerry (U7266788) on Tuesday, 22nd April 2008
What exactly happened to those who didn't bother to 'fall in' and 'sign on' for enlistment in the British armed services during WW2?
How many of them were there? -
Message 2
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Tuesday, 22nd April 2008
Youngjerry -
You might be well advised to consult the prison records for those numbers ! -
Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 22nd April 2008
T T. I was watching Foyles War on sunday, and the story was based round a young man paying somebody else to take his medical to get him classed as unfit. Did that really happen?
G F -
Message 4
Posted by Palaisglide (U3102587) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
Hi Fred,
I do not know about people paying others to take a medical but would bet it happened.
In our area many lads from the shipyards and steel mills joined the TA, they were called up at the outbreak of war.
It was then discovered we needed those men doing the skilled work of building ships etc so they were sent back home.
Some were sent abroad to Gibralta and Malta to repair damaged ships, they had it rough.
I well remember Dad going mad because a young chap he knew had received white feathers in the post and I do not think he was the only one.
Many people in the war years were needed for essential work as my uncles found when they tried to join up. They were miners so were told no chance, to them the forces would have been heaven after the mines.
It takes more than the forces to fight a war and without the essential supplies it would soon be lost, someone had to do those jobs. -
Message 5
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
Rem. Yes I know it takes more people in the rear to keep an army at the front. As the war went on of course the U K drafted women. In fact we were the only country to do so, bringing women into the work place to release more men for active service. Even Germany refused to force (German) women into war work. Mind you having millions of slave workers helped. It is only now, that these people Bevin Boys and Land Army girls among others are receiving some sort of award. Sadly Bomber Command aircrews are still waiting. At the hight of their losses, Bomber Command was loosing what would have been an Army Battalion in each raid. Could you imagine the outcry if the army had lost in 1944 a full battalion on an almost daily basis.
G F -
Message 6
Posted by Palaisglide (U3102587) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
Fred,
It makes my blood boil when I read about the injustice done to those airmen.
I watched them night after night as they took off from the local Canadian base assembled above our village then headed out.
We knew by the lengh of time before they came back where they had been and as they came in fairly low saw the damage to the planes.
This country owes them a massive medal and a parade to beat all parades, it will happen when there are only a few left to take the acolades.
It is disgusting.
Frank. -
Message 7
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
GF -
I see that we are back to the old saw of a special medal for bomber crews - it is my understanding that they lost 55,000 for nearly six years of war - right ? 10,000 per year on average - 192 per week ?
On another thread I have pointed out that in just three battles - El Alamein(2weeks) - Cassino(20weeks) and the Gothic Line(4weeks) - the Army lost 39,000 - 13,000 average/battle (500 per week -18 battalions overall ?) - then there were another few battles as well as that was just 8th army - then there was 1st - 2nd - and 14th Armies, 9th and 10th didn't fight much - they just stood there in the Mid East !
Special medal for Tank crews - Mine lifting Sappers - Riflemen - Engineer bridge builders ? - don't think so ! -
Message 8
Posted by lindavid (U10745308) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
Medals, i spent 22 years in the British army as a chef and that deserves a bloody medal.
the grief we used to get from our own side was bad enough, now in todays modern British Army Chefs are few and far between as every thing has been contracted out.
it gives me great pleasure to here the older squadies lamenting on the wonderful Chefs they used to have, they only relised what they had once it had gone.
back to the original message, every person in someway contributed to the overall victory, to single out any one group seems to be unfair, the medals issued eight stars: atlantic, italy, france/germany, 1939/45, air crew europe, burma, africa, and one other (hints please) plus the defence medal and war medal issued for WW11 service seem to cover all theatres of operations
i will state again "whatever the cost" (Winston)
the price was paid and we are still paying for the concquences of freedom. -
Message 9
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
Lindavid - you obviously didn't serve in the Pacific - or you might have remembered !
Speaking for all of us at the time - we would have happily given our Chef a medal - for going away - especially when he served us Dehydrated Meat - "never have so many been incapacitated by so few"
When we finally got to Austria - our Chef went on a cooking course in Italy and came back after three weeks a changed man - he was a star in the kitchen - then he went home on demob - we had to start all over again !
But you are quite correct - you truly deserve a medal or two for having put up with all that abuse for 22 years - that takes a lot of guts !
Cheers -
Message 10
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
T T, we issued medals (Quite rightly) for the Battle of the Atlantic, North Africa Italy etc. Why not one for the war over Europe? As I said, we have also given them to the Land Army and the Bevin Boys. Do not the R A F Bomber crews deserve something?
G F -
Message 11
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
GF -
It is my understanding that the "Air Crew Europe" medal was awarded for service over Europe from Sept '39 - to June '44 when it was superceded by the "France and Germany Star" - so it appears that their campaign was also recognised as well as the others !
Cheers -
Message 12
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
T T According to a piece the other week, Air Crew who joined the battle after June 1944 didn't qualify for those medals.
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Message 13
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
GF et al
Why we have to revisit this, I don't know.
Bomber Command aircrew were eligible for the "Aircrew, Europe" Star and/or the "France and Germany" Star (the cut-off for the first was 4 June '44).
Harris did argue that, as the RAF's main campaign, Bomber Command should get its own campaign medal (like the Africa Star), or a "Bomber Command" clasp like the "8th Army" one. He didn't succeed with either argument - indeed, the powers-that-be bitterly regretted the "8th Army" clasp as it proved so divisive.
Nonetheless, Bomber Command aircrew did get campaign medals in recognition of their service.
Harris's other argument, and the one he made the biggest fuss about, was that he felt his ground crews should get a campaign medal, because they suffered and worked just as hard as the Lines of Communication troops overseas, who did qualify for the campaign medal of the theatre they were in. As it was, groundcrews in UK (of whichever Command, incidentally), only qualified for the Defence Medal.
So, forget the idea that the aircrew didn't get a campaign medal of any sort.
Trooper Tom, you're being a bit unfair suggesting that the 55,000 dead aircrew wasn't a very high total. That was 55,000 (in fact, 57,000 including operational training accidents) out of a total of 125,000 operational aircrew. That amounts to a fatality (not just casualty) rate of 44%. No other Command, of any Service, approached that fatality rate. -
Message 14
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Wednesday, 23rd April 2008
Lost W/end
I don't think that I suggested that 55,000 bomber crew wasn't a high total - merely suggesting that in the context of just three battles fought by 8th Army against nearly six years of Bombing... it was appropriate...I know the percentage was high but to suggest that it was in the same region of 18 battalions for a few weeks... is a bit off - in my view ! -
Message 15
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 24th April 2008
Tpr Tom
I'm conscious I'm writing this to a man who was wounded in action, but I don't think you're comparing like with like. The Army suffered the largest number of casualties overall, but it was by far the largest service overall. No arm of the Army - infantry, RAC, RE or any of the others - suffered an overall fatality rate of 44% of the war as a whole.
The Royal Navy had 51,000 killed in action in the whole war, but I don't suppose you would deny them the Atlantic Star.
The point about Bomber Command's campaign is surely not how many aircrew took part, or how many died, but what it did to the enemy. It did constitute the single largest RAF campaign of the war, and did huge amounts of damage, even if it was not as great as the strategic bomber disciples argued it would be.
However, the Air Staff took the view that airpower is a joined-up business and individual Commands did not need individual campaign medals. Where there was a tri- or bi-service theatre campaign medal, the RAF elements got that. Where there wasn't (Europe between 1940-1944), there was a single campaign medal for all aircrew, of whatever Command, who operated over Europe.
For what it's worth, I agree with the Air Staff on this one. Bomber Command didn't need its own campaign medal, or clasp, and if Monty hadn't swung the 8th Army clasp, there probably wouldn't have been any real debate. -
Message 16
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Thursday, 24th April 2008
LostW/end-
I completely agree with both you and the air staff about awarding medals for any campaign - and I aslo agree that the Bomber crew losses were very high in comparison with anyone else - and I did not argue that the Navy should NOT have the Atlantic Star.....in fact all I was trying to point out was that other arms had grave losses in shorter time frames and that Bomber Crews were awarded an Air Crew Europe Medal prior to the France - Germany Star... all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I was wounded or not !
On the other hand I do know many battalions which suffered more than 44% killed in days ! -
Message 17
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Thursday, 24th April 2008
What exactly happened to those who didn't bother to 'fall in' and 'sign on' for enlistment in the British armed services during WW2?
How many of them were there?Β
There were 59,000 who registered as conscientious objectors.
I'm not certain, but I believe they could opt for alternate service in agriculture or industry.
Though some were jailed.
Trike. -
Message 18
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 24th April 2008
I was also led to believe that a number of them became Army Medics.
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Message 19
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Thursday, 24th April 2008
I was also led to believe that a number of them became Army Medics.Β
I've heard that as well,Fred. To prove they weren't cowards, some of them volunteered for hazardous duty as Combat Medics or Bomb Disposal.
Willing to risk their own lives but not prepared to kill.
Trike. -
Message 20
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 24th April 2008
Tom
Battalions that lost more than 44% killed in days?
44% overall casualties, possibly, but care to name one that lost more than 44% killed? I can't, despite researching the Normandy battles, and Anzio.
But even if there were instances (some of the Chindit units, perhaps?), it does not change the fact that the statistical chances of a "sharp end" infantryman surviving were better than that of Bomber Command aircrew. Interestingly, the overall casualty/POW rate - around 70% - is about the same for both categories.
My purpose is not to claim some moral or sacrificial high ground for the RAF. It is simply to make the point that the aircrew had a much reduced chance of survival overall. -
Message 21
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Thursday, 24th April 2008
Lost W/end
Of course there were more battles fought than at Normandy and Anzio - now at this point - I cannot recall the name of the battalion... BUT I do recall meeting up with one of the chaps who trained with me at Barnard Castle with the 61st Training regt R.A.C - while we were awaiting de-mob in May '47.
It was at a dance and we got to-gether for just a few minutes when he told me his story - which I had no reason to dispute.
The background of our relationship was that we two - with Ken Ward - Jimmy Atkinson - Freddie Crampin - Mike Azzopardi were members of the regimental running team coached by Cpl.Jimmy Gordon - the half back for Middlesbrough F.C. at that time. Bobby Combe of Hibernian and Scotland also played football with Jimmy and I at that time - Bobby nor Jimmy didn't go overseas !
All six of us underwent training as Potential Officers until the 6th WOSBIE when Mike and I were asked to leave ! Jimmy - Freddie and Ken were killed as Lts. in Burma, and Mike was killed at the Gothic Line - Rex Armitage his name was - and a Major - told me that he had sailed to Italy as a 2nd Lt. on a dreft to his regiment then fighting at Cassino - made 1st Lt. the next day as his six months probation was expired - he stayed with the Colonel at HQ.
The following day he was a Captain as the casualties were rising - two days later he was Major as there was only the Colonel - himself and nine other ranks left in the battalion - they took the colours home and he never left the U.K. after that - he had been in Italy a whole week !
Why should I disbelieve him ?- I don't as it happened to many battalions... he was living near Chester as a Pharmacist with his second wife whom he met at a dance in Barnard Castle when we were still training !
Cheers -
Message 22
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Monday, 28th April 2008
From what I can gather the British attitudes to conscientious objectors were less harsh than here in New Zealand, though I am probably thinking more of the first world war.
Some of our conscientious objectors then were virtually subject to torture. Archie Baxter, father of one of best-known poets, James K Baxter, wrote of his experiences in a book called We will not cease which I read a very long time ago and have basically forgotten. But he was send to the Western Front and when he still wouldnβt fight was tied to a post in the blazing sun for up to 4 hours at a time, as well as other punishments.
I think the authorities were less concerned about pacifists who would go into other essential services or become part of the medical personnel etc. But those whose views denied the validity of war at all were very strongly condemned and not just officially.
I have just yesterday finished reading a book β War Zones by Helen Beaglehole β for young adults set in New Zealand in WWII about the son of a conscientious objector. It is fiction but his father is a minister who resigns or is sacked for his views and at the time of the book is in jail for 10 years for recidivist anti-war preachings. From what I have just read in my Penguin History of New Zealand by very respected historian Michael King I suspect he is based on a real person. (Both Methodist ministers, both decorated in WWI, both imprisoned) The book also talks of Jehovah Witnesses being jailed for their pamphlets too.
Michael King had a quote from Ormond Burton who was watching the soldiers leave from his prison. He wrote: I could see the battles that were to come and how the strong and exultant young men who crowded these decks would be broken under their barrages. I found it very moving, as one always must when one sense the willingness of men to suffer and die for a cause that seems to them right. So, standing in the garden in my prison dress of field grey, I gave the general salute with my long-handled shovel β very reverently.β
There was conscription for Pakeha (European descent) New Zealanders but not for Maori. In WWI one of the tribes led by Princess Te Puea strongly resisted the war calls which led to a bit of anti feeling between her tribe and the government (though later she was a very respected person in New Zealand), but her tribe is the one at the centre of recent allegations of βMaori terrorismβ (for which the police are now having to reconsider their methods).
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 23
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Wednesday, 7th May 2008
Lost W/end...
Further to our discussion on losses in Army Battaliona as opposed to Bomber commands - and my story of my friend Rex Armitage losing his Battalion at Cassino - in days - here we have yet another case of high losses - in days - here is an excerpt from an Obituary for David Liddel M.C. - whose brother Ian incidently won a V.C. in NW Europe with his Guards battalion...
This was at Termoli - before Cassino in late '43
with the 12th Batt. Cameronians...
"Following the action in which he won his MC, Liddell was sent to hospital; but when he returned to his battalion a week later he found that it had managed to advance only a few houses up the village and had sustained such heavy losses that only five officers and 27 men were left." -
Message 24
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 7th May 2008
Tom
I ready his obituary as well.
My point, though, remains that not all the casualties in such engagements were killed - a high proportion of them were wounded, to a greater or lesser degree. The proportion between wounded and fatal casualties for infantry and cavalry was 3:1. For Bomber Command aircrew, they were twice as likely to be killed than wounded. They were also more likely to be killed, wounded and/or captured than to survive unscathed.
I'm not denying the gallantry of Army units, just highlighting the degree of aircrew sacrifice. -
Message 25
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Wednesday, 7th May 2008
Lost W/end...
And my point is - using your ratio of 3 -1.....the figure of 239/from 750 at full strength killed in a few days by just one battalion in just one battle is rather a lot of plane loads - we are well aware of the trials and tribulations of Air Crews and agree that they were substantial but losses by the PBI were equally substantial !
Cheers -
Message 26
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 7th May 2008
Tpr Tom
I think the Maths is getting confusing. My point is that for every man killed, three were wounded, not that in the case of the battalion action you cited, that everyone who left the start line but didn't arrive on the objective was either killed or wounded. As I'm sure you know, people get lost, or pinned down, or are left out of the assault - for a variety of reasons.
I don't know what the figures were for 12th Cameronians at Termoli, but it would be interesting to know what their casualties were over the whole campaign, which is the direct comparison with Bomber Command.
One set of figures I do have is for 1st Hampshires, one of the assault battalions on D-Day, which is reckoned to have suffered approximately twice as many casualties as the "average" battalion in NW Europe in the four and a half months it was in action:
231 all ranks killed
1050 all ranks wounded
On D-Day itself, the battalion suffered 182 casualties - 64 killed, 18 wounded.
If the battalion had no changes of personnel between 6 June and 17 November, the fatality rate would have been 27%. As you know, personnel would have changed, with people posted in and out (not just as battle casualty replacements), some would have been invalided for non-combat reasons, or jailed, or deserters/AWOL, so the real figure would have been lower (but higher in the rifle companies than in the battalion overall).
As I posted before, I would be surprised if you can find an infantry battalion, or armoured regiment, that suffered a 44% fatality rate, let alone a command 125,000 strong that suffered that fatality rate in total.
I'm not saying that individual battalions did not suffer cruelly in particular actions - I've read far too many accounts not to know (and, mercifully, have never been shot at myself). What I am saying is that, statistically, the Army did not face the same long odds as Bomber Command aircrew.
This may seem a rather cold an academic calculation, but it is important for people studying the campaigns to know what the facts were. -
Message 27
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Thursday, 8th May 2008
Lost W/end -
Do take your point that Maths was never my strong point - if I ever had any - so perhaps we should look at the rifle companies in total as opposed to whole battalions - Tank crews as opposed to the HQ's, echelons, cooks and LAD etc - might be a closer comparision - as John Ellis does in his "Cassino- The Hollow Victory " ?
Can't quote his figures as I have lent that book out - hoping to get it back !
Cheers
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