Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by panzermeister (U8231713) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
What say you? Should she have sailed out and gone down swinging rather than the ignominious ending she ended up with? The captain would have realised that he had been fooled by Allied propaganda when he got out to sea and found that there was no RN force waiting for him. He may have been able to make it back home to a heroes welcome.
Troy
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Message 2
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But when the whole world is convinced that a very large fleet including battle ships and aircraft carriers await you. What would you do? Go out and have your crew killed for no reason? But having said that. We have had British ships throw themselves into battles they could not win. But for a reason. In one case, to allow a convoy to escape. In others in the vain hope that the Aircraft carrier they were escorting could also escape.
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Message 3
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
Even if the Germans were aware that there were only two light and one heavy cruiser waiting for the Spee, it isn't likely that the German ship would have fought it out. According to the records I've read, the Spee had almost exhausted its 11-inch ammunition and was rather low on the 5-inch. I read somewhere that they had enough 11-inch for only 5 salvoes and if true, it would have been suicide for them to try to fight it out.
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Message 4
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:00 GMT, in reply to GrumpyFred in message 2
I suppose to put it another way, if the Graf Spee did go out all guns blazing, could she have, if not won, at least fought clear?
The Graf Spee was not seriously damaged in the battle, but what damage she had suffered - particularly that to the bows, kitchens and oil bunkers could have caused severe problems on the journey home - in the case of the bows, particularly in the winter seas of the North Atlantic. Yes, if Ajax and Achilles had been rash enough to engage the pocket battleship the the Graf Spee would probably have made short work of them - providing they were not given the chance to make a torpedo attack, as they had planned to do before Graf Spee took refuge in Montevideo. But all they needed to do was tail Graf Spee and home in reinforcements.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 5
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
i am not a naval expert - just a lightweight
but!!
through out its history the RN has gone for it
Jutland "something wrong with our ships old chap" - heavy casualties but still patrolling the seas and the German battle fleet retired to dry dock
Falklands - atacked attacked attacked with a couple of mini carriers against a big fleet carrier and a modern fleet armed with exocets - they played bowls (or maybe polo) - we bled and won
bismark - destroyers, stringbags and cruisers threw themselves against a far superior enemy
Prince of wales and repulse - surely they knew the end was nigh
malta convoys - no turning back there
russian convoys - also
I cannot imagine any situation where a hugely powerful british ship would deliberately scuttle itself rather than nail its colours to the mast and fight to the death
imagine if that was the Hood in there (yes i know - short lived ) - it would have been "Any married men please go ashore now - after a chorus of God save the King"
cant believe the hun could live with that
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Message 6
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
"What say you? Should she have sailed out and gone down swinging rather than the ignominious ending she ended up with? The captain would have realised that he had been fooled by Allied propaganda when he got out to sea and found that there was no RN force waiting for him. He may have been able to make it back home to a heroes welcome."
I agree with Grumpyfred.Graf Spee's captain (Langsdorf)made his decision with the facts available to him.That it was a brilliant ruse by the British to make him think that the RN equivalent of the "four horsemen of the apocolypse" were bearing down on him shouldnt be forgotton.( there is a great line in the film "The Battle Of The River Plate" were the british head of intelligence in Montevideo states comments that: "The lightkeeper must have exceptional eyesight to have seen HMS Repulse of the estuary,she's currently in drydock in Gibraltar
)
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Message 7
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
Stalteriisok
Re Jutland,Falklands
To use a land based phrase analogy,its not so much the how much you have lost but who controls the field of battle.As you pointed out at Jutland we lost 3 battlecruisers and 3 armoured cruisers plus a number of destroyers along with 6000 men.BUT the Rn were still patrolling the North Sea in the morning to re engage and the Grand fleet was pretty much (apart from HMS Marlborough,which had been torpedoed and HMS Collosus? which had recieved a shell hit)unscathed.The Germans,no matter how they trumpeted had not broken the British hold.
As one observer put it
"The Germans have assaulted their jailor but remain in jail"
As for the Falklands? Several ships lost,many damaged and we (UK) had a fair amount of luck,but the union jack was raised again over Port Stanley.
As for the Graf Spee?Maybe it came down to nerve and bluff.Harwood kept his,Langsdorf didnt.That he and his ship sucumbed to intelligence,counter intelligence and good old fashioned bluff is irelevent,they are also the practices/weapons of war.
And again the British didnt leave the field!
As you say though for every "ying" there is "yang",Force "Z" being a classic example of when "discretion being the better part of valour" or maybe,more to the point, "a good Admiral always knows when to retreat"
Hope life is treating you well
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Message 8
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
And don't forget, Cumberland joined the small fleet by then. So she fights her way out. Sinking one, maybe two of the ships without receiving any more damage. It's a long way home. Her supply ship had already run for it. The combined French and British fleets where headed either towards her, or if she slipped past, to their block points. As she came closer home, even with help from the German fleet coming out to meet her(Would they?)she would still have to run through Allied controlled waters. So which way. The Channel? French ships on one side, British on the other. More likely the way she slipped out before war was declared and the way Bismark did later. But she is not the Bismark. Yes, she has speed, but by then she would be cruising to conserve fuel. She has used up most if not all of her 11 inch shells. She is withing range of Allied Sunderland A/C within the Demark Straight. They spot for Hood or K G V or any of the other heavies stationed at Scapa. Her sinking would be a done thing. That would then (I suggest) make Hitler think twice about sending Bismark out later. The spectar of a second German Warship resting on the bottom would send shivers down his spine. Remembering he was not a Navy man.
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Message 9
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
VF
nicely put
love this
"The Germans have assaulted their jailor but remain in jail"
in all the naval battles i have read about - the RN has almost been a kamikaze force - they have never backed off - even against overwhelming force -
the falklands they went for it with no back off - bomb alley - exocets - they never took a backward step - yet the argies went straight back to port when a ship got hit
the bismark made me smile - tiny little gnats didnt stop biting a vastly superior beast
you could probably tell me here - has a British warship ever scuttled instead of fighting ??
is life treating me well / Carling cup old sausage - lol - and u ?
regards
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Message 10
Posted by Trooper Tom Canning - WW2 Site Helper (U519668) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
ST - Carling cup ? - just as well they won't be meeting the Villa again this year then ? - One point out of six ???
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Message 11
Posted by Scarboro (U2806863) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
Add 2 more to the list of British kamikazes:
Jervis Bay - attacks aGerman pocket battleship Admiral Scheer, to allow her convoy time to scatter
Glowworm - destroyer attacks and rams German Heavy Cruiser, Admiral Von Hipper; German commander recommends the British captain for a Victoria CrossLink to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 12
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 3rd March 2008
trooper tom
ha !! we are in europe and its only feb lol
scarboro
nice one - i think that proves my point
our divine wind chappies seemed to weigh 1000s of tons lol
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Message 13
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 4th March 2008
Jervis Bay. Now that was real courage. A converted Merchant Ship with Great War guns taking on a warship with bigger guns and better armour. Knowing that she had no chance, but doing only because it was her duty, and it would give her most of her charges a chance to escape.
Re Gloworm. Again, a very brave act. But did not one of the captains facing Graff Spey intend to do the same if given the chance? I remember the line in the film. "It will be the end of us of course." Such a simple statement of fact. As if he was talking about the weather.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 14
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Tuesday, 4th March 2008
Or the "Rawlpindi" an AMC commanded by a Captain Kennedy which decided to fight it out against the Sharnhorst & Gnesnau.
Sunk in forty minutes.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 15
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Tuesday, 4th March 2008
stalteriisok,
through out its history the RN has gone for it ...
I cannot imagine any situation where a hugely powerful british ship would deliberately scuttle itself rather than nail its colours to the mast and fight to the death
... Μύ
OTOH, they were rather reluctant to chance the mines in the Dardanelles in 1915.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 16
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Tuesday, 4th March 2008
WhiteCamary
To be fair,the RN had lost HMS Ocean,HMS Irrestistable and almost lost HMS Inflexible.The French had lost the "Bouvet",whilst the "Suffren" had been badly damaged and the Gaulous damaged to such an extent that she sank in harbour!
So they did try.Ironically the turks were virtually out of ammunition when the RN gave up,and somewhat suprised and relieved to see the fleet withdrawn.Thats not to say it wasnt a disaster..The operation was badly led and badly thought out,even if the concept was good the execution was terrible.
Bttdp
Another classic,though on this occassion successful
The Battle Of The Barents Sea.Sherbrook gave a masterclass in how to deal with a more powerful opponent,his opposite Admiral Kummetz was given the "runaround"
Another similar example would be the "Second Battle Of Sirte" Admiral Vian held of a battleship,2 heavy cruisers,1 light cruiser and 10 destroyers with a collection of ships none of which was larger than a light cruiser.(Indeed HMS Carlisle was a dedicated AA cruiser)
Hope you are well
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Message 17
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Tuesday, 4th March 2008
Re Sirte - Have you read CS Forester's 'The Ship'
It's based on the 1st battle, but is an excellent depiction of an RN ship during combat.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 18
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 4th March 2008
hi white camry
stalteriisok,
through out its history the RN has gone for it ...
I cannot imagine any situation where a hugely powerful british ship would deliberately scuttle itself rather than nail its colours to the mast and fight to the death
...
Quoted from this message
OTOH, they were rather reluctant to chance the mines in the Dardanelles in 1915.
Μύ
HA !!! - but thats sneaky business - they had no control over that
bet u that if they were told that there were 5 monitors and an 18 inch battleship waing for them it would have been different lol
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Message 19
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 5th March 2008
Hi White Camry.
re reluctance to charge into mine fields.
Its not Mobile bay and Farragut was dead by then.
The problem with Gallipoli is that the minesweepers cant get in to sweep the mines because of the guns and the battleships cant deal with the guns because of the mines.
In any event given the standard of gunnery in the Navy at that time they would have been lucky to hit Turkey let alone the gun emplacements.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 20
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Wednesday, 5th March 2008
Getting back to the subject of this thread:
Even if Graf Spee had called the British bluff and sailed out to fight, she couldn't have prevailed against the cruisers that were actually present.
As I said in an earlier post, she had already used much of her ammunition in the battle with the Exeter, Achilles and Ajax. Her 11-inch shells were nearly gone and although ammunition for her secondary armament (150 mm), was available, it couldn't outrange the 6 and 8-inch guns of the British cruisers. So if a major battle had taken place in the shallow waters of the Rio de la Plata, Spee would have been sunk.
Nevertheless, Langsdorff actually asked the Berlin Admiralty for permission to try to fight his way out. He pointed out however, that even if there were no heavy units waiting outside for him, he wouldn't be able to beat the 3 cruisers that he KNEW were there. He said his ship would almost certainly be sunk and most of his crew would probably be killed. Worse, lacking heavy shells, he probably wouldn't be able to inflict any significant damage on the British force.
Raeder told this to Hitler who initially said he didn't gave a damn if the Graf Spee sank and lost every man... he insisted Langsdorff fight to the death.
The Berlin Admiralty, however, told Hitler that in their opinion it would be less of a defeat and show some defiance for the way Uruguay had treated the German Navy if they scuttled the Spee in one of the main channels, thus interfering with shipping into and out of the port of Montevideo. Hitler then said ok, as long as everything on board was destroyed before scuttling.
Afterward, Hitler threw a tantrum, claiming he'd given no such permission. He got even angrier when he discovered that some important equipment on board hadn't been destroyed because the Spee didn't have enough explosives left to wreck everything. As a result, the Uruguayans had managed to salvage some of the radar gear and British Intelligence got hold of it.
The German press nevertheless said that Hitler had indeed ordered the scuttling and that Langsdorff had merely obeyed orders... but he shot himself anyhow.
So even if Spee had come out to fight, the result would have been the same.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 21
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 5th March 2008
Erik
but their street cred would have been better lol
has the graf spee been dived and photographed ??
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Message 22
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Thursday, 6th March 2008
Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:08 GMT, in reply to stalteriisok in message 21
has the graf spee been dived and photographed ??Μύ
There was talk a while back about raising her! Some wealthy South American, IIRC. Think it came to nothing, though.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 23
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Thursday, 6th March 2008
Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:12 GMT, in reply to Anglo-Norman in message 22
I tell a lie. The work is in progress - part private funded, part Uruguayan Govt funded, because she's a hazard to shipping (as she was in her career
). Ultimately there are plans to restore her.
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Message 24
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 6th March 2008
I seem to remember they have lifted some of her. She is not a war grave, so this can happen.
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Message 25
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Thursday, 6th March 2008
<quote userid</quote>The work is in progress - part private funded, part Uruguayan Govt funded, because she's a hazard to shipping (as she was in her career</quote>
That's exactly what Hitler wanted when he gave permission to scuttle the Graf Spee. He instructed Langsdorff to sink her in a main channel into Montevideo. He wanted her to be a menace to mercantile vessels and to require pilotage when entering harbour. He was angry with the Uruguayan gov't because they'd stuck strictly to the Geneva Convention's agreed-upon stipulations and refused to permit the Spee to remain at anchor longer.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 26
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Thursday, 6th March 2008
Jutland "something wrong with our ships old chap" - heavy casualties but still patrolling the seas and the German battle fleet retired to dry dockΜύ
"Going for it" wasn't Jellicoe's style, in fact he made it perfectly clear before the battle that he did not intend to pursue a retreating German fleet. He was worried about being lured into a submarine and mine trap. So at the crucial time, he turned his fleet away from the enemy, and allowed the Hochseeflotte to get away. While resented by many, his conservative strategy worked. Granted, this was against tradition, and Jellicoe had the admiralty's approval of his plans kept safely in a bank vault!
Beatty, in charge of the battlecruisers, also knew better than to commit suicide. He was willing to engage his German opposites, but when the Hochseeflotte appeared the scene he turned and ran away towards Jellicoe, dragging the enemy with him, as it was his clear duty to do. Anything else would have been madness.
There was of course the suicidal charge by Arbuthnot's obsolete cruisers at the crippled Wiesbaden, in the face of the complete German fleet. He got a posthumous VC for that, but actually it was idiotic, and resulted in the unnecessary loss of ships and men to no useful purpose.
Falklands - atacked attacked attacked with a couple of mini carriers against a big fleet carrier and a modern fleet armed with exocetsΜύ
That somewhat overstates the modernity and strength of the Argentinian fleet and air force. And they had very few Exocets. But it still was a big risk, and could have ended in a disaster if the Argentinian AF had had more reliable fuses on its bombs.
bismark - destroyers, stringbags and cruisers threw themselves against a far superior enemyΜύ
In reality, Bismarck was shadowed for a long time by HMS Norfolk and HMS Suffolk, briefly in company with the HMS Prince of Wales, while carefully avoiding engagement. Their captains were not mad! Their primary goal was to keep track of the Bismarck.
Prince of wales and repulse - surely they knew the end was nighΜύ
No. Phillips clearly underestimated the danger of enemy air attack, and relied on his anti-aircraft guns when he should have stayed under air cover.
malta convoys - no turning back thereΜύ
Not, at least, on operation Pedestal, despite heavy losses; but that was because it absolutely essential to get supplies to Malta. Without the island would have had to surrender.
russian convoys - alsoΜύ
Interrupted several times because the weather was too awful and losses too high.
I cannot imagine any situation where a hugely powerful British ship would deliberately scuttle itself rather than nail its colours to the mast and fight to the death.Μύ
I can't think of any example, but then the Royal Navy always had bases around the world and reinforcements at hand. Graf Spee was alone and far away from home, with no friendly ports at a reasonable distance and serious damage. Fighting her way half across the world was hardly an option.
There have been examples of British ships fighting against hopeless odds. For example Grenville's last stand with Revenge in 1591. And the Graf Spee was named after Maximilian von Spee, whose ships had easily destroyed an obsolescent and outnumbered British squadron in the battle of Coronel in 1914. Admiral Cradock should have known better, but courageous his attack certainly was.
On the other hand there is of course the refusal of admiral Troubridge to engage Goeben and Breslau in the Mediterranean in 1914. After the battle of the River Plate, commodore Harwood was actually congratulated by some for "proving" this decision wrong. The feeling existed that because Harwood had won his battle, then Troubridge could have won as well. But Troubridge was under orders not to engage a superior force, and his decision not to attack the modern Goeben with his obsolete armoured cruisers was at least defensible.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 27
Posted by petes (U3344676) on Friday, 7th March 2008
βNot, at least, on operation Pedestal, despite heavy losses; but that was because it absolutely essential to get supplies to Malta. Without the island would have had to surrenderβ
Agreed Mutatis..
I think this episode was one of the turning points of WW2 and couldnβt have succeeded without the bravery of the RN crews. Under dawn to dusk attack from bombers, MT boats and submarines for several days, they stuck to the task of protecting the remains of the convoy and delivering the Ohio βsafelyβ into port. Malta was relieved but had it fallen Rommel would have almost certainly won, Cairo would have fallen and the ME oil fields would have opened up to the Germans. The whole WW2 scenario would have changed significantly.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 28
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Friday, 7th March 2008
But don't forget the unsung hero's. The men and women of the Merchant navys. I remember a senior Grey Funnel saying to me. "We got all the glory, they did all the work."
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Message 29
Posted by Sabre-Wulf (U2142937) on Friday, 7th March 2008
Re message 26, at Coronel Craddock knew that by turning and running he was sacrificing his slower moving vessels.
His plan (such as it was) was to try and inflict any damage at all on Von Spee's fleet, and also force them to expend fuel and ammunition which couldn't be replaced so far from friendly ports, in the hope that they would then be more vulnerable to any follow up attacks.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 30
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Saturday, 8th March 2008
Just rewatched the History Channel Battle of the River Plate again. A very (In my opinion) Pro German doc. Landsdorf wanted a battle before returning home, but (Again this is according to the programe) against a weaker side. A destroyer or two. They kept saying that he decided to scuttle because he was greatly outnumbered, and it was to save life. Within hours of the scuttling, he most have known he had been bluffed. Indeed the whole world would have know. Was this the real reason he shot himself. The fact he had folded to a weaker hand? Again, it neber mentions the arrival of the only re enforcements, the third cruiser.
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Message 31
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Saturday, 8th March 2008
Just FYI, there is a street in the little town of Ajax, Ontario, named after Capt. Langsdorff. Ajax is on Lake Ontario just east of Toronto near Pickering, and if memory serves (and I could wrong here) Ajax used to feature the engineering college for the University of Toronto. I think it's higher educational facilities are now more like a trade school than a branch of the University, altho' it may offer Bachelor's degrees.
Some WW2 veterans of the RCN objected rather strongly to naming a street in their town after a naval hero of Nazi Germany, but those merchant captains who were on board the Spee as captives after their ships had been sunk hailed the idea. They described Langsdorff as a real gentleman, a warrior of Imperial Germany, not Hitler's Nazi Germany. They said he had gone out of his way to see to it that the crews of the ships he sank were safe and that they themselves (the captains) were treated very humanely by both he and his crew while on board.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 32
Posted by terakunene (U9761462) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
My late Father was in Montevideo for the final stages of this action. So many people wanted to carry Langsdorfs coffin that a ballot had to be held.
He reckoned that the Graf Spee came into harbour spouting black funnel smoke as if there was a serious fault with the main engines.
He remained convinced that the Graf Spee came into Montivideo rather than make a run for sympathetic Argentina because of the engine damage.
It now seems that the real damage to the Graf Spee was caused by the heavy 8" shells of the Exeter rather then the lighter 6" shells from the other ships, which is possibly why the Exeter bacame the priority target and had to quit for repairs.Link to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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Message 33
Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Tuesday, 11th March 2008
Could very well be the case, terakunene. I've long wondered why she went into Montevideo, a country that tended to be friendly to the British and French, rather than head for Argentina where there were so many German sympathizers. The observation that she may have been hit in her engine spaces would explain it.
According to the various accounts written of the battle, Graf Spee took 65 hits, most of which were on the superstructure and were dismissed as mainly superficial, but some of those big AP 8-inch bricks tossed out by Exeter would surely have penetrated her armour, and we know Exeter scored several hits from her action reports. I suspect it was Exeter's shells that wrecked Spee's galleys and food storage areas as well, since those parts of the ship were rather deep inside and fairly well-protected.
One learns something new every day, it seemsLink to this forum: Should the Graf Spee have fought it out?
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