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What happened to the Iraqi Airforce in the first Gulf War?

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008

  I seem to recall that Saddam had quite a large fighter force of Soviet fast jets before the first Gulf war started.
  There were vague press reports, never followed-up properly (imho), that these jets were flown to Iran, to be placed 'out of harm's way'.
  Saddam seemed to accept that his aircraft would not last long against coalition air to air missiles.
  
  That these aircraft should end-up in Iran, of all places, struck me as most unlikely, given what had passed between Iran and Iraq not that many years before.
  
  Any idea what really happened to these jets and their pilots?

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by jinks-cider-stash (U7847019) on Monday, 21st January 2008

  I seem to remember the opening stanza of the Gulf War involved air strikes against the Iraqi air force. I think it was practically wiped out in the first few days. Also it was the first combat mission for the new Stealth Bomber.
  
  However, I was 11 at the time so this might not be accurate.
  
  During the more recent Iraq conflict I saw an American Marine Sergeant giving a interview to new journalists. While giving his interview he was confronted by an irate British helicopter pilot demanding to know why his regiment had opened fire on a friendly chopper. The sergeant said that he thought it was an enemy helicopter to which the pilot replied 'How many time have to seen an Iraqi flying a f'ing helicopter?' proof that the Iraqi air force never really recover from the first few days of bombing in 1991.
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Monday, 21st January 2008

  Thanks Jinks. I had come to believe that my starter had 'dropped below the radar'.
  
  What you say makes perfect sense. It's just strangely difficult to get much information.
  
  Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall that Gulf War 1 was the first time that large numbers of laser and GPS-guided precision munitions were used operationally. Lots of supposedly 'hardened' Iraqi facilities ended-up with neat holes in their roofs and the doors blown off. So heavy losses of Iraqi jets, in their newly vulnerable hangars, seems highly probable.
  
  We know a few Iraqi fighters made it through almost to the end of that short period of conflict, because a Saudi pilot (given QDM's by the US CAP F15's, via AWACS) managed to destroy a Mig, 4 days before the fighting ended.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by englishvote (U5473482) on Monday, 21st January 2008

  
  
  Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall that Gulf War 1 was the first time that large numbers of laser and GPS-guided precision munitions were used operationally.
  
  
  Μύ
  
  It was the first time that GPS guided weapons were used in any large numbers, but not the first time they had been used.
  
  But laser guided bombs and TV guided bombs and missiles had been used extensively during the Vietnam war.
  
  Laser guided bombs such as AGM Walleye, GBU’s and Paveway were deployed in the late 1960’s in Vietnam. I do not now if more were used during the Iraqi wars or in Vietnam.
  
  The Bullpup air to ground guided missiles were also used in Vietnam, but these had been replaced by the Maverick missile by 1991.
  
  The Vietnam War also saw the widespread use of anti radar missiles such as the Shrike and Standard ARM, these were replaced by the much improved HARM by the time of the war in Iraq.
  
  
  All of this is of course in regards to the USA, Britain and all the other coalition forces had not used these type of weapons before in any major conflict.
  
  Even though the Royal Air Force had supposedly had the capability for many years to use laser guided bombs from most of its ground attack aircraft, in reality it was forced to deploy ageing ex- Royal Navy Buccaneers to designate the targets.
  For some strange economical reason only the unwanted slow ex-Royal Navy Buccaneers had been equipped with the Pave Spike laser designators.
  

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• Message 5

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  Posted by JB (U569100) on Monday, 21st January 2008

  Back to the original question:
  
  Quite a few of Saddam's best Sukhois, MiGs and Mirage F1s went to Iran and were impounded then confiscated as war reparations. Two theories behind this:
  
  1. Saddam was attempting to shift the focus of the conflict by attacking Israel and thought the Iranians would be sympathetic.
  
  2. The pilots legged it of their own initiative.
  

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Monday, 21st January 2008

  To Englishvote (4)
  
  I stand corrected.
  
  And a very interesting correction it was.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Monday, 21st January 2008

  To JB (5)
  Saddam was attempting to shift the focus of the conflict by attacking Israel and thought the Iranians would be sympathetic.Μύ
  
  That makes sense and is consistent with his Scud attacks on Israel, during his retreat from Kuwait. The Palestinians certainly thought he was a hero for that.
  But it seems extraordinary that he thought that Shia Iran would actually warm to him if he gave them the best part of his airforce, after all he had done to the Shia around Basra and his gas attacks on Iranian troops in the ten-year Iran/Iraq conflict.
  
  You say that the Iraqi pilots 'legged-it'. Do you know if any returned to tell the tale?
  Are those Sukhois and MiGs still around in Iran?
  
  

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• Message 8

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  Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 21st January 2008

  I saw some super photos on the much aligned Debka site after GW2 showing the us digging out migs that had been buried 30 ft deep to hide them lol
  
  THATS where they went !!
  
  st

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by JB (U569100) on Tuesday, 22nd January 2008

  U328....
  
  
  The planes remain in service with the Iranian AF. You can check the inventory in 'Jane's'.
  
  No idea what happened to the pilots.
  
  It does seem mad, but that would be entirely characteristic of a Saddam Bright Idea. He was an uneducated peasant who surrounded himself with terrified sycophants who would never dare say anything except "Brillian Idea, Excellency!"
  

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by JB (U569100) on Tuesday, 22nd January 2008

  
  
  At least 115 combat aircraft flew to Iran, out of the total of 137-149 aircraft flown to Iran or crashed enroute [including 15 Il-76s and some number of civilian airliners]. According to an official Iraqi statement, the aircraft included 115 combat aircraft, among them 24 Mirage F1s, 4 Su-20 Fitters, 40 Su-22 Fitters, 24 Su-24 Fencers, seven Su-25 Frogfoots, nine MiG-23 Floggers, and four MiG-29 Fulcrums. Reports that Saddam Hussein ordered 20 Tu-22 bombers to Iran appear unfounded. In 1993 it was reported that Russia was to provide Iran with spare parts, armaments, and operating manuals for the Iraqi jets that flew to Iran during the Gulf War. In 1993 it was reported that China had bought an unknown number of these MiG-29s from Iran, in exchange for Chinese missile technology and a nuclear power station. The two countries had reportedly reached agreement on the exchange in late 1992, with Iran having delivered some of the MiG-29s by the end of 1992. In 1998 Iraq and Iran had high-level meetings to discuss ending their state of war and other matters, including Iraq's request to have its airplanes back. Iran denied it had used any of the Iraqi fighter planes. If Iran had kept the Iraqi planes grounded for the entire time, they are probably nonfunctional -- the Iranians may not be able to start the engines or operate the hydraulics. Other reports suggest that some Su-24s have been added to Iran's existing inventory, some Su-20/22s were in Revolutionary Guard service. The Iraqi Su-25s, MiG-23s and Mirage F1s were thought by some to be not in service, due to age, low capability (MiG-23s) or too few numbers (Su-25). Other reports suggest that Iran had overhauled Iraq's fleet of 24 Mirage F-1B fighters and placed them into service.
  
  

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 24th January 2008

  To JB (9&10)
  
  Many thanks for those full replies and the useful link.
  
  You have fully answered my question. Strange as it would seem, Saddam gave most his fighters to his old enemy, Iran. And some of those aircraft were serious contenders (later marque Su's and MiG's).
  Perhaps he just could not face the propaganda disaster of his jets being filmed falling out of the sky because of superior US A to A missile technology?
  
  Given that you managed to confirm a story I was unable tp track down, could you tell us what you had to 'google' to get those data?
  
  Thanks again.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by JB (U569100) on Thursday, 24th January 2008

  Just click on the link at the top of the posting.
  

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 24th January 2008

  JB.
  
  Yep. I did that, it works well.
  
  I suppose what I meant is how did you track-down the link itself. How did you know such a site existed?
  
  The web usually has the answers we are looking for, the skill is knowing what to ask.
  
  You are clearly better at that than I am

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by SONICBOOMER (U3688838) on Sunday, 17th February 2008

  Just having the aircraft is not enough.
  The Iraqi AF performed very poorly in the Iran-Iraq war.
  
  In 1991, Iraq had an extensive Soviet based air-defence system, radars, SAM's, AAA, fighters.
  But being based on the Soviet model, it was too rigid, fighter pilot training was poor was Western standards, interceptions were too heavily ground controlled-which can be jammed and/or the command directly taken out.
  
  9 years before, the Israeli AF destroyed a similar network in Syria, but unlike Iraq, many more Syrian AF aircraft attempted to engage.
  I think the final score was about 60-0, not one Israeli AF aircraft was brought down by another aircraft.
  
  In 1991, Iraq had some Mig-29's to counter the F-15/F-16's so superior to the older Soviet models the Syrians had.
  But this early Mig-29 had poor radar/fire-control systems.
  They had not the latest Mirage 2000's, but lots of still potent Mirage F-1's, the best Iraqi SAM's were some Franco-German Rolands, though most of this massive inventory was Soviet.
  
  The 1991 coalition had AWACS, extensive and flexible command and control, better aircraft, better weapons, very well trained crews, better anti radar missiles and jamming.
  (Israel did not have for example, the US 'Prowler' aircraft).
  
  Being sensible, the coalition commanders planned for a much better Iraq performance in air defence, but it soon became clear the whole edifice of the Iraqi defence, was blinded, crumbling.
  
  I think that the Iraqi AF managed to down just one (out of all those 1000's of sorties) coalition aircraft by one of their fighters.
  A Mig-25 got a USN F-18 early on.
  (But then two bomb laden F-18's would engage and destroy two Iraqi Migs then carry on with their air to ground mission).

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